Having the Sex Talk With Teens
Talking dating and sex with your pre-teen or teenager can be nerve-wracking, and your inclination may be to avoid it altogether — after all, won't TikTok and P*rnhub teach them eventually? Ugh, no, stop it. Shafia Zaloom, author of "Sex, Teens & Everything in Between" (www.shafiazaloom.com) tells us we should consider changing the focus from drowning our kids in warnings and scary stuff to talking up the plus side of healthy, consensual relationships and sex. Radical thought. She also walks us through an exercise where we need to picture a bear. Listen, it's eye-opening and shockingly, Jenna and Amanda have very different bears. This week, Amanda is also joined by her good friend and parent of a teen Alissa Weber, who she taps for intel on what it's like parenting this age group and what the kids these days are talking about in terms of sex.
Amanda: Welcome to Toxic. Be aware that this podcast talks about necessarily discussion regarding topics of violence against women. There may be descriptions of intimate partner abuse, violence and child abuse and sexual assault which can be triggered. Please exercise caution in listening. We also use adult language because were adults. Finally, if you like what you hear, please leave a review or click the subscribe button and the magic podcast machine can tell you when the next episode is comes out.
All right, Shafia Zaloom is a health educator, consultant, parent and the author of “Sex, Teens and everything in Between”. About exactly wanting to know. It has been called the ultimate relationship guide for all orientations and identities. And a book that quote every teen, every parent and educator and every other adult who interacts with teens should read. So welcome, Shafia.
Shafia: Thank you so much for having me.
Amanda: Thank you for being here. I am so excited to pick your brain on this because what we are gonna talk about today is a topic that I am really passionate about. Maybe because I feel like my sex education or lack thereof while growing up was a par. No open experience but I wished I would have been armed per se of a lot more information than I was and as a mom now with two girls, thankfully nowhere near around dating age yet. I’m super educating myself on how best to open this dialogue because I should say that I am a big proponent of starting these talks and like possible . My little girls know the phrase, my body language and it thrills me when they throw that out. No response or something. So I don’t know if you’ll agree that talk should start early but it’s kind of where I stand.
Shafia: I do, there are all kinds of ways that we can approach this topic early. And it doesn’t always, a lot of people think that it has a lot to do with explicit sexual vocabulary and all those sort of things. That’s just not true. So parents are the primarily sexual educator in a child’s life. and it is very important to know that role but to realize that age-appropriate does truly mean that. So we start this as early as possible when kids start talking. when they start learning these body parts. We know from decades of research that when to come with language . There actually main and talk things about their body parts and what they feel in relationships and what they notice in when people experience. Are they interacting with someone else? These types are going to lead to bottling up the autonomy, making better choices, phasing themselves. Or sorts of things. So you want to start early, it is all about these moments scaffolding these all the time then layers of an onion-like building this across the development of the stages and age-appropriately. So I love that you are starting early. That’s actually right on.
Amanda: Good. 10 points for me as a parent. So I should say that you are currently the health teacher at the Urban School in San Francisco and you also develop curricula and training for schools across the country. You have worked with thousand of children’s families and from what you write about in your book it sounds like you have been asked every conceivable question and under the sun about sex and dating. I was just gonna say, there’s any have asked does shock you anymore?
Shafia: Oh no. I have some real zingers over the years and made me feel just about anything so it’s all good. It is all open for discussion and I think that’s part of what teenagers are receptive too. You know I have been consulting for college but when I work with adolescents, with teenagers we are talking like 13’s and 19’s and also young adults. That really resonates because the state of sex education in our country is a bit small. There are some amazing people doing incredible things and I can rattle them on all off on where they live or how they are doing at and generally speaking, it is really bad. When you look at places, like the Netherlands, when you look at the Dutch, they start sex-positive,sex education in kindergarten. And their children are far more relational. All those things that we try to prevent like unintended pregnancy, sexually transmitted disease and all those things, their numbers are the lowest in the world. And their kids are really good at balancing this idea of responsibility and pleasure when it comes to exploring sexuality within themselves and someone else. And they are all examples of them for us in how it should be than in our country that is not the case.
Amanda: I feel like that phrase sex-positive that you have used before on a podcast, being a sex-positive podcaster, having the sex-positive talk with your kids can kind of intimidate some parents who don’t want associate the word sex with their kids right? So how would you advise these parents to start this talk if they want to be like the Dutch and start talking with their kids at any age that is comfortable to them to start implementing these ideas about safe sex, safe dating, safe relationships or any combination of those things.
Shafia: At first, it is really important to acknowledge that parents are probably already doing this but in a different way. So the primary messaging that we want the kids to walk away with is that how we treat each other matters and to be able to treat each other in a way that people are valued, have a sense of dignity. In any interaction when I talk to young people about what sex is, when I talk to teenager is when two people walk away with dignity. It is not someone saying yes, it is not someone agreeing who is actually going for it. Those people will get to walk away with their dignity intact. And I think a lot of parents are already doing that. In teaching kids on how we treat each other matters and that it is really important to treat each other well, what respect is and building empathy through appreciation and gratitude and all those different things because that’s what the foundation of that is. And so I think it is more thinking intrusive or shift. So we want to start early. I want to talk about something because you said sex-positive. Sex-positive, what we mean by that is that sex shouldn’t be based on the types, it’s not bad. It’s what you do that matters that it is really essential and important part of who we are as human beings. And people’s choice around sexuality as long as there is a fundamental level or physical and emotional state that it is consensual and legal. That those people have the right to their own sexual agency and autonomy to make those choices for themselves. Also I like to add for myself is I believe in peoples capacity to engage in fulfilling, enriching, loving, caring relationships that really contribute to our lives in positive ways. And you said parents can get scared about the positive and there is this notion in our culture which is completely unfounded. There is no empirical evidence that tells us that if we talk to kids about pleasure, they gonna go and have sex. And actually the inverse is true. That we have comprehensive programs, when we speak about development in appropriate ways across the spectrum in a way that is really positive and not shaming that they will actually phase themselves and delay sexual debut. They actually be really thoughtful about the choices they make in way that would benefit them in their relationships in the future.
Amanda: It’s like pulling away from the current. It like saying like, it is no longer a mysterious thing. I admitted to start talking about maybe like alcohol. This is what alcohol is, like that it is not a forbidden thing. Because I think when you make it forbidden the kids obnoxiously kind of want it more?
Jenna: That alone is a full conversation of, because forbidden is what it turns out to the lack of conversation and that exactly it. I just think it is so funny because at least in the Midwest here there are so much to see of that forbiddingness in some of our more religious communities and those religious communities tend to have more teenage pregnancies and it is like, if you don’t teach them how the baby is made, then how do they avoid having the baby?
Shafia: And there is the thing, and it is hard for people. And if we think about it in certain ways that actually it is developmentally appropriate for teenagers to explore sexuality within themselves or someone else as long as it is you know. It is. You know that there is some developmental task that they are meant to accomplish in those teen years in exploring their sexuality. However it needs to happen within individuals sense of readiness in context, like social values and all those things which are super important. But kids are not able to get that and they are not able to exercise their own autonomy and make their own decisions once we give them the information they need. And when it comes to this it is really important to remember that we have to talk about this all different things. It is not just the information. Because kids are drowning with information these days with the internet and everything else, right? But it is actually that they are starving with values and wisdom.so how I gonna apply that information to the complexities of human relationships. So how it is then in interpersonal dynamic, so that does it mean for me on a Saturday night. I’ll go and teach the kids across the country, and yes we know the definition of consent is but what does that mean, what does it looks like and feel like?
Amanda: I was just gonna say, your book has a lot of good information in sex, teens and everything in between, not just about sex but in relationships and how to approach the opposite sex no matter what sex you are approaching, no matter gender identity you have. It just talks about it and in a general sense of like this is what you do with that information which I though was refreshing because I of all the sex books I have read that is actually that is usually missing.
Shafia: Well, a lot of times too what’s missing is going back to when we have these conversations. I mean it really is, we could break it down and we could talk about it in elementary school, middle school-aged people, high school-aged people and sort of beyond and what are the things you should focus on. The book actually does that for adolescents in particular. It is really important to strike a balance. What I find is a lot of people with the best of intentions are giving kids tons of information but it is on how to avoid unintended pregnancy, it is on how to avoid sexually transmitted infection, how not to hurt somebody, how not to, what consent is, checking off the boxes. But it is typically on the framework or sanction on how things could go drastically wrong. it is really like a sort of this is such things you want to avoid. And kids, there is something about this they are drawn to it, really curious about it and that is pretty intense. And the majority of my friends feel the same way. They want to acknowledge there is a sexual and romantic kids and certainly are there. When it comes to sort of majority of kids this is what they are drawn to, adults are drawn to it, there gotta be something looking good about it. And what is it, and why are you telling me I cant have it? Makes them want it even more. So I think it is really important also what we present, in my books there is at least a hundred scenarios in it, real stories that teenagers have shared with me about what they are doing and all that sort of stuff. And people sort of get inside into that can actually think about so how can I be real development without telling my kids. But whats really important is to balance but we don’t tell kid what to aspire to. We just tell kids what to avoid. And that would be like if I was teaching someone to be a really beautiful gourmet dinner and all I talk about was food poisoning and how to avoid it, right? We want to talk about the feast. Then ultimately that’s what we are going towards. So then how do you then know that you are hungry, how do you know what you are eating, how much do you try and how many times do you give it a try and when are full and satisfied? And how do you know in your body and how does that align with your behavior. Those are things and it’s gotta be positive. So in my book there are so many positive representations of what teenagers are up to. As there are dubious, sketchy issue laden, right? Because we have to honor teenager actually do and make some really good decisions sometimes. And some are doing it right. Treating each other with dignity, with mutual respect and are caring, have the capacity to authentically connect with others. And that does very important things, one, they see us in their own eyes and they see us and build this credibility into those kids to you. They see what you honor and acknowledge and know that they have the capacity to do these things. And that some kids are. And the other part of it is that you believe in them. That you believe in their capacity to do that. They may falter along the way, they make mistakes, we all do. But ultimately, we believe we can get there. And kids are concrete thinkers. They actually get to see in a concrete way, oh that’s what I am going for. That’s what I wanted to look, sound and feel like for me. That is what is healthy. That is what is good. That is what it feels like. To have someone listen to me, pay attention to me and care about my experience. Take the time to understand who I am, someone who is trustworthy. All those things and sometimes we forget that. So it is really important to cool that. Talk about love. That was huge. Making care and project 2017 conducted a study at a graduate school at Harvard University and they have a study called the Talk and found that are kids are mostly prepared for caring and loving relationships. Because checking the boxes on, we are not talking to them about love. Like, what does it mean to love somebody? And how do we cultivate the capacity to love and be loved.
Amanda: I remember any of that from my U. There was no mention about love, no. That’s a great point.
Shafia: Here’s the big thing. It is actually the day that tells us and there’s lots of it. Not your GPA. It is not where you go to school that determines the quality of your life. It is the quality of your relationships. How you really get there, right? Like in every other way, aspects of life were scaffolding for kids to school or everywhere else, place, information and how to put it together or editing. All that stuff. Most important piece we’re not necessarily doing that well. That is why we have to have this conversation in this jungle.
Amanda: That is a great point.
Jenna: I have a question, a little bit. Like Amanda I have two kids. One of my daughter is 11. She’s starting middle school next year. And then my son is six. He is almost seven. I guess my question is, I wonder awhile ago I bought her a book for my daughter, this has everything about it. About the body, about what it is doing, about what it will do. And you can have this and have a look at it if there is anything you are afraid to ask me but let’s have conversations too like I don’t want this handed this off to, and must be beyond of it. I want to talk about things too. She is pretty good about talking about it. But I guess, my questions is when we are talking about sex positivity and being safe and making the right decisions and doing the right thing. Do you feel like that conversation, aside from the semantics of gender, maybe, do you feel like the conversation is basically the same? When you have that conversation of a boy or a girl, daughter or son, I guess I am wondering if it makes sense to kind of mix everything rather than just. I am telling you the right story, tell me.
Shafia: Right. I would mix so that, I think most importantly, we want our kids to discover and know their truths. Especially when it comes to sexuality, what we know is that when we are trying to and when we have an agenda for them when it comes to that they then experience things like change. And that in particular can be so insidious to someone’s development and self-esteem, gender identity in so many ways. So the more inclusive, my example stories, the better. Because they are also gonna have friends and we want them to all be good friends to each other. Because there will come a time when they no longer go to you for an advice and they will be going to their friends. And so when they come to their friends we want them to be able to be good friends and advisor in how to do and these sorts of situations that they are presented with. So as inclusive as possible. I think it is really a great way to talk about opposites through media, music, shows that they may be watching. TV and movies and also, and once they also enters into cyberspace, through the phone or something like that, that sot of thing. It is really important to be these examples, to talk about these sorts of talk because you also want to maintain your parent-child boundary. That is incredibly important right? It is really important that we are not yet too personal. We could give them all kinds of information, we can talk about how they will apply the information. All these sorts of things and it is also important that they understand that they can have some privacy, not secrecy. That’s two different things right? That’s privacy and they should know the difference between secrecy and privacy when it comes to sexual context. That they have the right to be private about certain things as do you because so many questions may come up as well like, I have been asked in front of classroom with kids, when did you lose your virginity? Tools like that so, those are great opportunities, slip it your kids ask questions. They are thinking about something other than you. That’s the way it comes out.
Jenna: Like a validation kind of thing.
Shafia: Like a validation kind of thing and ultimately, with a lot of these things. Here’s a thing with gender, when it comes to sex education it is important to be able to talk about our bodies. All people’s bodies, all people’s genders, all people’s orientation because that it is actually quite fluid. So allow for that fluidity. And developmentally, kids are gonna try on different identities, they gonna say things, they gonna represent things, just know that’s just developmental and that time will tell. And maybe growing or may not. And that’s why inspiration is really important. To be there and go through with them. It is really important too, to help them understand that whoever it is that you are partnering with or relationship with, with your friends, your family or a crush or romantic interest. There is some fundamental values that mean to be at work. And that your relationship should mean the same thing to both people. Those things, what does it feel like, emotional and body experience about being in that relationship feels like. These are things that transcend any of those social identities, like gender and stuff. Deepen and widen their vocabulary when it comes to their capacity to talk about new ones ways, the emotional and bodily experiences. Stay away from happy, sad and brave. Start to delve into the emotional vocabulary, so that they can be emotionally literate, mark bracket the road permission to feel the rose emotional literacy program at yale university, fabulous work and app everything that happens to do with this. That’s really important.
Jenna: Now, what kind of adjectives are you talking about specifically like?
Shafia: So, you know, trustworthy, loyal, frustrated, sad that talks about the emotion and certainly you know and we want to stay away from. It depends on the age of the kid. Sometimes they don’t have the capacity for more new ones. This is what you are building over time, right? So good,bad,sad, angry mad, you know those are the basics to start with. Even most adults default to those because we haven’t worked on the vocabulary that we need to actually communicate with each other.
Jenna: Or even understanding what we are feeling. Because we just kind of take it back down to whatever, is this make me feel good or is this make me feel bad? Because I can’t actually understand to what is making me feel.
Shafia: Right, and when we have language at least we have something at which to explore that. So you know, am I frustrated, do I feel betrayed, do I feel trust, is this feel intimate? Or is this infatuation and you know there are all kinds of different language. Like when you are listening to music with your middle schooler in the car, do you think this song is about infatuation? Or like a real connection?
Jenna: I cant even imagine if I have been told the concept of infatuation versus the concept of love. Because I definitely, nothing against you mom and dad but I think I constantly since the day I understood that I was straight and that I like boys is that infatuation is all I ran from just like that feeling. And it is so important to distinguish between the two.
Shafia: But the part that you want to talk about when it comes to gender and other social identities like race, class, communities, and faith. All those other aspects that those other social institutions like create the context that we social understand on sexuality. When it comes to genders understand how does gender intercept with things that are important in a relationship and make it in a way or may determine in what direction. So start to think about in terms of how these fundamentals, how do these show up? Or how do the dynamic shift in change based on different identities and dynamics like social power, gender socialization, cultural norms, things like that. How we tend to socialize all of us regardless of our gender. To value women for appearance and to define their worth on how desirable externally. Or how desirable the identity is right to women. And so, talking about that stuff and calling it out is really important so there is like fundamental values on how we treat each other as human beings and then a more sophisticated takeaway later on when they actually got it, ok so does gender matter? Does being a girl matter in this situation? Does being a boy, what if your gender is not conforming? You don’t feel like a boy or a girl? Maybe you do more so than you do more on another day. Does that matter in your relationships and how? That’s the way it shows up and being real about that. There’s also the world we want to live in right? And there’s the world we actually live in. And if you’re living in the grid or reality there is some really significant gender pieces that we need to be talking about.
Amanda: One thing you said earlier about driving boundaries is an adult to me and I was just gonna ask about how often we should be having this talk with our kids and from what you are saying it sounds like it is best to bring it up in causal conversations with examples, present themselves through music, or movies, or TV or social situations and things like that.but I am curious how much of your past did you talk about with your kids because I was always kind of the belief if I share some of the things that I went through as a teenager maybe my kids will start to feel like its normal, it happens to me too and this could help and maybe that’s not the right to think?
Shafia: there’s a couple of things here. In terms of maintaining boundaries it is really important to, your kids doesn’t want to understand you and I say this to kids all the time. Imagine your kids engage in sexual activity, imaging them imagining you in sexual activity there’s a big icky factor right? That’s just because of our relationship and so with them as it should be. When you are trying to give yourselves some privacy and you are trying to maintain a certain level of boundary. I’d say stick with feelings over chronological stories. So empathize and connect on a feeling level. You know, I was in a situation that made me feel this versus this is what I did, and this is what how I did it and this is how, you know, and laying out chronology of the events . so first, I would explore what I mentioned before that’s interesting I actually intended that you brought this topic up and I am curious to know what inspired you to want to know about me and my story. And then you can say, is this something that comes up in school or wondering about the background of the things and where do you go from there I would base on feelings more than on the chronology of the events and details. And then the other part of is it to how if this is not age-appropriate, it is an opportunity to role model and to say it is really an individual thing in many ways it is intuitive. It is something you could turn around with your friends or partner If you have one and here’s the thing I’d be happy to talk to you about that at some point but right now that is something I want to keep private but I think that topic you brought up was really important. So lets talk about that a little bit more and when we get to a point where I feel like you’re ready and have the maturity to sharing something like that for me is really private and you know and personal then I’d be happy to talk to you about it. Because you really want to see what the motivation is behind the asking and how they are asking it. Because your kids need you as a parent. They need you to be the adult, they need you to role model what it is to have boundaries, to build trust over time. To build a conversation and connection and intimacy over time. They need to experience that to the relationships so that they can understand how they can be creative and what they can expect. So that’s how you guide them in that situation. There are some things you want to present organically present lots of opportunities across these things and there are some things we need to talk about and may not and may avoid it. So I think of balance of situation and you could say you know I have been waiting for awhile to present to you because there is this topic that I want to talk to you about to be a responsible parent means some information needs to have to make good decisions. They may go screaming, my kids do this I mean literally my daughter trap in the car, she knows I am going to get her and let her hands over her ears and it is such a gift because one of the things that get in the way of ability to actually practice consent and the things that we want them to requires a deep connection and vulnerability in which our culture is constantly telling them to avoid. You can in that moment say, I don’t know or this is hard or sometimes the hardest conversations are the most important ones to have especially in a relationships and my parents always talks to me about this. When they are younger, make them feel like there is democracy in your house.
Amanda: you know what, the thing that makes me weight so heavy on me the way that I could never when I was younger and think about having that conversation. Do I want to promote a full conversation with my kids but I want them to feel like at least I want them to feel? I think that is the part you said this before, is the struggle between I am your parent, don’t talk to me like I am just your friend. But also please trust that I am here to help you in any way that I possibly can. But I am still gonna be your mom. I think that is the part that I think is the most difficult for me and I think even my daughter can sense I am her friend and I am her mom but where is that boundary? And how do we establish the clearness of that boundary?
Shafia: As the people who love you the most your dad, your mom, whoever it is I want you to have really awesome like care level relationships that include positive sexual activity that is fulfilling and satisfying and someone cares about your experience that you are able to enjoy it, that you are able to have in your terms that you are able and there some things that you need to be able to do that. You need information, you need to have a certain level of capacity to actually do that. You have to be able to connect to someone. you need to know about these things and pry that information. And I want us to be able to talk about this stuff. And there are some things you are able to know and your parent to tell you about this way and this is what I want for you. So there is actually a few things we need to address specifically when it comes to pornography and our teenagers and adolescents so that is one thing that has changed quite a bit since we were this age.
Jenna: I think it is so funny because I do think about the level of access, right because when I was younger I was like I found some playboys that are laying around and somehow I found a videography set, what am I looking at and now it is like I typed in the word boner on Google and now I can watch whatever I want to. And it is just like that level of seemingly was hard to find or was it a taboo that you stumbled upon and now its all-access 24 hours a day.
Shafia: For sure. And now kids are stumbling upon it as well, and the average age now is 11 that a child comes across pornography. So I have been doing this for 25 years, right? And I get the question a lot what is the thing that is changed in all of this the most. I would say, absolutely the internet, social media for sure having connecting kids especially in their digital natives there is that piece but pornography also and the pornographization of our culture has been huge so same thing. We would earmark Ray or someone had come across a magazine from a relative or a parent that’s in the closet or the garage or something the VHS or the Betamax tape like you were saying you know. And even if we did, the majority of the time it was a still image and you have to engage your own imagination. That is not the case anymore, one it is pervasive and there’s ton of clickbait out there to get kid to it in particular. And also gigantic business and so accessible and so it is really important and our mainstream culture has been pornified in many ways and it is ever more explicit and very performance-oriented and how sex is actually presented and enforced in terms of narrative on to kids. The performance is huge. We live in meritocracy that we rewards achievement and so those kids are getting a counternarrative from their parents or their school or whatever they gonna pick why sex wouldn’t be performance-oriented or achievement-oriented too. And it is in a popular culture too that is why it is important that we be having this conversation. Porn today is a multisensory experience and if someone else’s imagination and fantasy that they are getting and because of the delivery mechanism and digital device there is a dopamine reward response on the brain that reinforces what they are doing that are positive good chemicals right? And so if they are masturbating to it and experiencing orgasm there is additional dopamine reinforcement in the rewards center of the brain. So that’s really significant, especially because we are talking about developing brains and developing sexual identities and so..
Amanda: Is that how people get addicted to porn with that dopamine release? Is that what causes I don’t know if it’s traditional addiction.
Shafia: Yeah, so that is a really good point that you have brought up so the research is mix and there is not a lot of it for young people under the age of 18 because no parent is gonna consent their kid participating in porn research study whatever and it is illegal to share young people under the age of 18 sexual explicit material anyway. What we do now in terms of neuroplastic brains and how they are shaped and developed is that how porn can impact those brains and how they are developing and their capacity to engage in real-life relationships and experience intimacy and all those things. So addiction, some people believe it’s addictive, some people don’t like in traditional terms of addiction is. However, hands own professionals recognize that it can be used compulsively and interfere in the healthy development of relationships and things like that with young people, adults too but we are talking about and whether you are pro-porn or anti-porn at this point I feel like it is pretty irrelevant because we are talking about minors here and developing brains and so that’s important and there’s feminist porn and real porn and all that stuff, so the stuff the kids are watching are curious about is the free stuff and 70% of it is misogynist and exaggerated response.
Jenna: And the extreme stuff that actually is shocking right? That’s the other stuff that you get for free. It is not like the desirable stuff.
Shafia: Because the industry, because it is digital and virtual there’s tremendous competition so everyone is trying to outcompete each other. The other part of it is how digital delivery mechanism so we are now logically programmed to seek out what is noble, right? And so we go to tolerance too and to actually experience arousal, too masturbate, etc., kids they have to go tolerance they have to catch more and more hardcore porn to get to that point so there is that piece as well. The multi-sensory experience they are seeing it, they are hearing it, there’s a kinesthetic aspect if they are actually exploring their own sexuality right through masturbation so there’s a lot to it. And I think the other part of it is we talked about the state of sex education in our country. Pornography has been the default sex ed of our country. If you want to know, what are you doing, Google it. Of course, kids are gonna be curious about it. That’s more and more natural, we cant change children for that and when you have this conversation that is probably the most important piece is that you do not enter this conversation and creative context teaching.
Amanda: Can you just go ahead and assume that at some point you’re adolescent is going to watch porn and so you preempt that with conversation and like, you probably gonna see this and what you need to know about it a, not real, b, not necessary.
Shafia: And I would just say it is possible that you would come across this and I am pretty sure at some point your friend will or you will be exposed to it or you may come across this by mistake. So here are the things that you need to know. Like what is appropriate imagery, what isn’t appropriate, you don’t wanna talk about your kids porn news so like the porn they are watching. You wanted to talk about these things you are bringing up. Not realistic, this is not representative of those people having health-related practices. It is probably contractual versus consensual. And for adults’ entertainment, not for educational purposes at all, right? But like for instance, porn is like 6 – 10 minute sex may take 4 to 6 hours to actually film, directed. They get to rehearse many, many times. All those different things the performer’s bodies, the hands, the shaving part is an important piece, especially if you have girls that a lot more boys are talking about going more naturally because it makes them look like they have a big penis and the girls, porn producers are probably recorded talking about how child pornography is illegal so they direct their female performers to shave so you know, you start telling kids this stuff. It is important to be compassionate and kind when it comes to these conversations. It tends to be gender, at the moment I think there are more boys that are watching than girls. The reasons may be different too. I find boys when they talk about their porn rules it is more about everybody does it, It is a way to get off. It’s just part of their masturbation practices and those kinds of things. Also, wanting to learn what certain these things are? What are they supposed to do because the cultural norm is boys should be dominant, that they should know, what they are doing, how are they doing it. They should be good at it and it’s all about size and endurance. So that’s a tall order for boys and it is stressful for them. And so that performance anxiety they went to porn to like try and figure it all out. That’s like watching the Fast and Furious to learn how to drive. Then, girls, some girls are looking because they want to tap into and explore sort of feel like that and what is porn all about. But others are looking to try and see what they are competing against, how they should be doing, and how they should respond because they aren’t actually feeling good in their sexual experiences. They aren’t experiencing pleasure so they are trying to look to see how they should respond because they don’t want to tell their partners they are not doing anything right or think there is something wrong with them because they are not actually experiencing the pure good pleasure.
Amanda: Oh, that needs to be corrected.
Shafia: In my book, there’s a whole chapter and a lot of people don’t want to go looking to porn to try and figure out how to talk to their kids about it so I lay it all out in my book. And what you can say the language is, how to create the context and how to talk about it in a way that it is appropriate. But ultimately for boys, we want them to actually, for all kids, but I say this in a gendered way because for boys it tends to be commonly accepted that boys are gonna masturbate in pornography. They masturbate in a variety of contexts and it is ok for them to have a fantasy. Like a lot of girls freak out when you say to engage their own imagination to have a fantasy and it happens to their own desire as it relates to that. That is healthy as long as they don’t act on it in a nonconsensual way that is healthy. I say to them and they were like, what? I would never do that. They are happy too and they think it is normal to watch someone else fantasy and get off on it on a regular basis even if it’s misogynist, violent, aggressive, and any of those things. So we really have to create that counternarrative.
Amanda: Such a good point talking about fantasies versus porn in terms of it’s ok to pretend this but it less ok to watch it happen to them and expect them to be the reality.
Shafia: For sure, and be really aware of what they start to expect or want on relationships and as parents, it is the most important thing that we can talk about our kids about I feel like is intimacy and what that looks like and feels like. We are doing that right now. I mean I am assuming you two read stories to your children before they go to bed. That is nirita for them. That is intimacy. It is the end of the day, you carved out time and take time in an enriching time so you can count on it is dependable right? You show off, they can trust that and you are gonna communicate to them if you can. Or we are going out so you gonna have a sitter or somebody or someone coming over to take care of you, we read tomorrow night. You know something like that, you paying attention to each other, you are in close proximity to each other you are sharing a story or discussing it. And that is reassuring to them. Your relationship with them and spending time with them in a non-destructive way because sleep for little kids can be vulnerable sometimes. Like they can have a bad dream, it is the dark or whatever. That reassuring sense of intimacy and how it makes you feel good. To cause the positive feelings of that. That is a lesson in sexuality. Later you can draw, remember those feelings that we share and how that felt good that’s what you can expect and should have and want to have positive relationships and that’s what closeness is. That’s what connection is. That’s what communication is, you tell stories of your life, so memories you share, stories and whatever and also what you read in different directions. You start to share because it is intimate because it feels close. They tell you about their day and something that happened or you like ask a question or you like ladies there is ticking, there is something right. And when you are intimate with a partner it is some sort of context so that you can tell stories about your lives with each other. And that sexual relationship communication. Let’s think of a bear, the way I talk about sexual communication to young people is to think of a bear. So think of a bear, of the animal bear, not bear because we are talking sex like naked, a natural bear. See it in your mind’s eye, notice what color it is, what it is doing, where it is. So Jenna, what is your bear like?
Jenna: So my bear, just total fear and anxiety. That is my bear.
Amanda: Are you picturing a bear running after you?
Shafia: Ok, what color is your bear?
Jenna: Like a grizzly bear but that’s what I feel like my bear is colored like. Am I checking this too literal?
Amanda: I don’t know. I can’t wait for this.
Shafia: So grizzly bear, that is brown, and what it is doing?
Jenna: It is not being cute. It is menacing.
Shafia: It is been menacing, so you see teeth in there, is it all on fours?
Jenna: It is upon highlights.
Shafia: Ok, is it growling?
Jenna: I feel like it is mostly growling but I feel like it is baring its teeth.
Shafia: ok, where is it?
Jenna: Like on a hiking trail.
Shafia: Ok, on a hiking trail, so grizzly bear, brown, it is a bit menacing, you are experiencing fear and anxiety, it’s upon on its hind legs and the surrounding area is like on a hiking trail in the forest. Ok, great and then Amanda, what’s your bear look like and what its doing?
Amanda: I literally picture a teddy bear. Maybe I got this activity wrong.
.Shafia: No, you got it just right on. So you are talking teddy bear? And what kind? From where?
Amanda: I think I was just picturing, my daughter has a brown teddy bear that she got on 1 year at Christmas time. Sitting on the bed, wearing a red bow and so adorable.
Shafia: What size it?
Amanda: Small, I would say. You cant see this podcast listeners but I don’t know a foot height?
Shafia: Ok, ok great. So I was thinking of a polar bear because the worldwide just emailed me now about polar bear day. And of course they have a picture of a polar bear up in the arctic, on a disappearing ice and it was looking for food to catch and which is non-existent and not there. It is a big one and it is with its little cub so it was a mama polar bear that was white and big on a disappearing ice in the arctic with its little cub. So what do you notice about our three bears?
Jenna: They are completely different.
Shafia: We are all different. They are all different. So we all knew what a bear was we very easily could have assume that we still knew with each other’s bears then we started to talk about it it is actually wrong and different. And what was it that conjured up what you imagine? What was it that conjures that bear in your imagination? What do you think?
Jenna: I can only imagine that mine was because a, I was always full of anxiety but b, love horror movies and anything that is scary. So when I think of a bear I don’t think of one that I want to cuddle and love. I think of a one that is essentially going to harm me at some point.
Shafa: Ok and Amanda what’s yours is your family and your daughter and anything else?
Amanda: Yeah, I think because we have been talking about kids and stuff. And I guess that’s what is on my mind and I was surrounded with, I recorded this from the room where I teach my kids during the pandemic time. So I am surrounded by all things kids so I think that is where my mind is now.
Shafia: For sure, mine was because I received this email image before I got on this and so two months from now maybe go to a park to see a bear or maybe the next time I talk to you just reshare gummy bear because of our kids . or you watch a grizzly bear or you so yogi bear or being on California, the smoking bear is totally popular. So its context, like our experiences, the things that are happening in our lives determine what our bear looks like and feels like. Like it is up to sexual relationships is like thinking a bear. That we can’t assume those bears look like that when it comes to these sorts of things is that we took the time to understand someone’s bear.
Amanda: That is really good.
Shafia: It helps kids understand. Like oh ok, so how do you know someone’s bear looks like or what its up to, you actually have to ask. Because when it comes to things like, because when we don’t and we make assumptions that someone’s bear just looks like ours or comes from the same place is when miscommunication happens and misunderstandings happen. So I talk about especially with consent and things like that. With things to consent you have to agree to someone that you think you both understand to be true and the same. Relationships are healthy when they not missing things about people.
Amanda: And indicate no, when you don’t talk.
Shafia: And it is not just saying oh we are talking agreeing to a bear great! You actually take the time to say, what color is your bear? Kids will say, I often talk to a room of a hundred kids and they will say what their bears look like and I get, koala bears which are even not bears and the panda bears are huge, some people in science say they are raccoons. Like there are so many bears come into play, like circus bears, graham cracker bears, who bears. Yogi the bear, panda the bear, so many different kinds and so that diversity is so what helps us understand how important it is to actually take the time and ask and find out about some of those bears. Because if you don’t that’s when you make these mistakes and that’s not gonna lead to authentic connection. It is gonna drive us apart.
Amanda: Well wow that is amazing.
Jenna: Honestly, like I’m speechless. Oh my God, it is so simple. It is so good. I’m gonna forever keep this in my brain.
Shafia: And maybe some other time we’ll talk about consent which is French fries.
Amanda: Yeah. Let’s have another conversation about consent. That’s my favorite topic.
Shafia: That’s a nitty-gritty one. That’s where we talk about the bears on another level.
Amanda: Alright, let’s do that. Thank you so much, Shafia for being here. Again, I want to plug your book ‘Sex, Teens, and Everything in Between.’ I feel like every parent should read that. You have a website shafiazaloom.com. Thank you so much again for sharing and we’ll love to have you again and talk about this because I am sure we will get some questions that we have not thought of.
Shafia: Thank you so much for your interest. It was really fun and it is a great conversation with you two.
Link to original recording: Having the Sex Talk With Teens Featuring Author Shafia Zaloom