Talking Consent and Porn with Teens: Interview with Shafia Zaloom
Shafia Zaloom, health educator and author of Sex, Teens, and Everything in Between, shares how to talk about consent and sexuality with teens.
Sue Borison here from Your Teen Media. Today I'm here with Shafia Zaloom, a health educator and author of Sex, Teens, and Everything In Between. You wrote Sex, Teens, and Everything In Between, and who’s your target audience? Who’s reading your book?
You know, what was challenging is having two audiences, and that is not typically what you’re supposed to do when you write. You’re supposed to be very specific to your target, but I really wanted it to be for both teenagers as well as their parents. Initially parents, because I do parent education as well to go with how I teach kids, because I believe that the way to be most effective in being preventative is to encourage parents as well as their teenagers to meet each other halfway and have this dialogue.
So I structured it in a way that the first half of every chapter is for parents. Teenagers can read it and get something out of it, certainly. And then the second half is structured more for teenagers and how they digest information, but also role models for parents the language and ways in which you would answer their frequently asked questions — those that I get when I travel across the country and talk about healthy sexual relationship education.
Yes, I mean, I always encourage parents — you know, kids need an environment free of judgment, shame, and ultimatums to share with open honesty. So it's really important I encourage parents to lead with empathy, to suspend judgment, and the best way to do that is to get genuinely curious and talk up to our kids and allow our kids to become experts in some of the things that they're actually dealing with, because that’s a power that kids have that none of us adults do — and that’s to know what kids are doing when the adults aren’t around. And those are the things that we actually really want to be getting into conversation with them about.
And so, you know, staying away from “why” questions — because when we hear “why,” and kids’ radar is so sensitive to this — when they hear “why,” they hear judgment. We’ve already made a judgment when we ask “why.” So stick with things like “what,” “how,” if you want to make a statement or frame a conversation: “I notice,” or “I’ve read and I’ve picked up on…” “What do you think?” “What do you think it would take?” “How do you think this should go?” “Did both people get to walk away with their dignity?”
Those kinds of questions from a place of sincere curiosity with the need to understand, I think, are the most important for parents to lead with.
So, I guess you're known as the consent lady, right?
Yes.
So, if we continue down that path — you use French fries as an example. Can you tell us about that?
Absolutely. So you know, kids are concrete thinkers, and I find it’s really helpful — and parents are relieved to realize — that we're really talking about what's at work every day in our lives, and then just building a concrete bridge into the context of sexuality to talk about it there. But consent is at work all the time.
Consent is basically educating people on how to treat you and listening for how others want to be treated. And we do this all the time in our homes. We're doing a lot of it right now with COVID and what's going on as we try to figure out how to navigate the space with each other given these different parameters.
French fries are a great example because most people like French fries. And I’ll do this with — you know, we can do it right now, play it out. I do this with parents, I do it with students, I do it with teachers. I’ll lead in with getting everybody psyched about fries: “Who likes French fries?” Most people raise their hands. “What kind of fries?” Kids love to do this, right? Shoestring fries, Chick-fil-A waffle fries with special sauce, ballpark garlic fries — you could go on. People love to talk about fries, so everybody gets excited.
And then we talk about the sides, right? And this is fun when I travel because different places prefer different sides. It’s actually a cultural thing, which is really interesting. So you know, there's barbecue, there's ranch, there's ketchup. The defining question is: “Who likes mayo with their fries?” You know you're in California when kids start talking about aioli.
So you know, there's a lot that we talk about. We get excited about fries. And then you have these fries on a tray or a plate at home, and you sit down at a table with your family members or your friends. What happens? It's a pretty universal experience for a lot of kids — adults too. Adults think about it in a different way, and I’ll get to that in a second.
You know, hands just come darting in and picking off your fries. And then I’ll ask a crowd, “How many of you are actually okay with this?” And pretty much nobody will raise their hand. I’ll get a few kids who raise their hands — just a few — and I’ll say, “Okay, so are you thinking in terms of context?” “Well, yeah, if it's my good friend or we’ve been sharing fries for a long time,” that kind of thing.
I’ll say, “Okay, well independent of that context, would you be okay with it? What if it was some random person who was visiting school and your friend is showing them around and they help themselves too?” “No way.” That kind of thing.
Then I ask them, “What's not okay about that?”
“Well, they didn’t ask.”
“All right, well, you know, they belong to me, they're mine, I’m hungry, I went and got them.”
And then other kids will say, “Well, they didn’t ask.”
And I say, “Okay, so what’s so important about asking for your French fries if they belong to you?”
And they’ll say, “Well, you know, it shows respect. It’s like they care about how you’d feel about your French fries. Good manners show we care about people.”
And I’ll say, “Okay, so what gets in the way of actually saying something then? How many of you actually say something?”
Again, a very small number of kids raise their hands. They’ll say, “Well, I’ve been taught to share,” or “I don't want to draw attention to myself,” “I don't want to be judged — people just say like, ‘Oh, it’s just fries.’”
They don't want to introduce awkwardness or contention. They don't want to be seen as not being generous — those sorts of things. So how they're socialized basically in different ways might get in the way and different messages.
And so then I say, “Okay, so how does this then relate to sexuality?” Because they all know — when the consent lady is in front of them — they’ll say, “Well…”
I say, “What else belongs to you?”
“My body.”
“Our bodies.”
“Yes, your body and your sexuality belong to you. You get to choose how you touch and get touched because your body belongs to you.”
And then that propels us into a conversation about what consent looks, sounds, and feels like within the context of an interpersonal dynamic.
I mean, it's so concrete, it's so easy to see the connection between French fries and consent as a general concept that I feel like, when I listen to you talk about it, it does really crystallize the whole idea — and the whole idea also being how hard it would be in a physical relationship to ask for consent.
Absolutely — especially with how we don't talk about sexuality a whole lot, especially sexual consent, right? And so with how kids are socialized — especially gender socialization — it can be really powerful in an interpersonal dynamic, especially when kids are just trying to figure things out, when they're trying to build confidence, when they may not know themselves what they want or don't want when it comes to their sexuality and exploring it with someone else.
All kinds of things can get in the way. And so, you know, we really have to — that’s just the beginning. That’s setting the stage for those conversations about what language you might use. What do you have in your vocabulary that will accurately express what you want and what you don't want in a way that people will hear you and respect you?
And then teaching kids, too: How do we listen for what someone wants or doesn’t want? How are we aware of what gets in the way of someone expressing themselves authentically with us? And are those things at work in this dynamic?
Because ultimately — and this is where me being a sex-positive sex educator comes in — as long as things are on someone’s terms and within the context of an individual sense of readiness, it should be good. That is the whole point — that it should be a positive and pleasurable experience for both people involved.
We're experiencing a fairly unusual time right now. What is the isolation — at least if our kids are isolated — what is that doing to our kids right now? What stories are you hearing from them in terms of, you know, just the whole idea of their sexuality? If they're in a relationship already? If they're flirting with somebody?
Absolutely. I think, you know, it's interesting because initially I was so interested in talking to my students about how it's changed and shifted how kids are connecting and communicating with one another.
And I think the one thing that was universal — that all the kids I spoke to have shared — is that they've realized who their true friends are. Because, you know, there are all kinds of interactions we have on a regular basis when we experience community in physical ways, especially in schools.
So, you know, the kids you're hanging out with in class while you wait for it to start, or the kids you always say hi to in the hallway but don't necessarily connect with in other ways, the kids you Snapchat depending on how many friends you have or if you have social media, and then the kids who now you actually take the time and put the effort into FaceTiming, texting, staying connected to in the digital space.
So kids have realized who their real close friends are because of how much time is being invested in connecting. Because it's such a different context, you have to make that extra effort instead of just sending faces back and forth in Snapchat.
And then you know, you have to take into account their social styles. There are some kids who are truly introverted and believe that this feels like a really long weekend because they actually prefer to stay in, be at home, and not be socializing or feel the pressure to socialize in the way a lot of other kids do.
You also have kids who are in relationships with each other and can no longer be together physically. And so, you know, I hear kids — hands down — my kids think sexting has gone way up.
I’ve researched that a little bit, and there is some research out of the University of Indiana around how much adults are sexting — if they are more or less — and the information is that those who already might have are doing more of it, those who didn’t necessarily aren’t, and there’s actually more of a downward trend because of the negativity of the news and it's not really putting people in the mood.
However, there are folks who are, and I think that aligns with kids. And so, there are some kids who are just thinking, “I just can't even deal with this right now. I'm just going to wait until later. I'm going to focus on my friendships, focus on school, just kind of get through this.” They tend to be quieter kids.
And then there are kids who are in relationships and more social and coming up with ways — like, I don’t know, different videos and things like that to send to each other — and getting more creative with how they express their sexuality to each other.
So they're just being as widespread as all kids are — like COVID isn't changing — there's not a universal response to this. Okay, so this is such a hard one for parents: how do we talk to our kids about porn?
You know, I think pre-pandemic, post-pandemic, during the pandemic, we have to be having this conversation. There's actually pandemic porn. You know, Peggy Orenstein in her book has a whole chapter that just says if it exists, there's porn about it. And that is true.
And pornography — you know, the American Academy of Pediatrics puts our kids at 14,000 references to sexuality a year that they’re exposed to, and for some kids a lot of that is coming in through pornography. There are many other sources that are exposing our kids to that many sexual references for sure. Porn is just one of them.
So we need to be talking to kids about media — including sexual entertainment media. And when it comes to pornography, I think the most important piece — again, with all conversations about sexuality — is that it's important to suspend judgment.
And whether you're pro-porn or anti-porn is a family value that you can share. But if you really want to get into a conversation about your kid and have them listen to you, it's important that we suspend our judgment.
And that we communicate: it is normal and natural for kids to be curious about porn. It is normal and natural for kids to come across porn. It is normal and natural for kids to look to porn if they're curious about sex.
What they need to understand, though, is that it's a very narrow representation of what healthy sexuality is. And many of the important healthy sexuality practices that people should engage in are not represented in pornography.
And if kids are looking at porn to understand how sex works, that would be like watching The Fast and the Furious to learn how to drive, or watching Transformers to learn about physics. It's not representative of most people's healthy sexual practices.
How do I start the conversation? Like, is there a script that you could suggest that I start the conversation?
So with all these conversations, it's important that parents already be talking about media. Kids are digesting media in totally different ways than we did when we were younger. And they're streaming it. In terms of the ratings — some things don't have ratings. They're binge-watching. So not only the media itself, but the way in which it's being presented to them, and then how they're actually digesting that information.
So there's a lot that we can talk about with media first. It's great for parents to talk to kids about sexuality through media because there's a little bit of distance that can make things less awkward and more comfortable.
Find out — be genuinely curious, again suspend judgment — what are kids watching these days? Are there some shows that are particularly popular right now with the pandemic going on and people being on their devices more and having more time to watch?
And then either you watch it with your kid — if they'll allow for that, depends on your relationship with them — or you watch what they're watching independent of them and engage in conversation about it.
So this isn't one big talk. You’re collecting moments over time. You’re scaffolding this. And you can just ask things like, “Well, what did you think about this character?” or “Who do you think is the hero?” or “Do you think that they treat each other right and they have a positive relationship?”
Those are the kinds of questions you ask. If you're watching with your teenager, you could say, “Do you think both people walked away with their dignity? Was consent explicitly asked for? I couldn't tell.”
Having some humility and allowing them to explore that and share what they know, I think, is really helpful.
Then you can transition into — if you're already having conversations about media — and you have to resist the temptation to launch. Like, they'll start to open the door — you'll find if you take this approach — and you can't just jump in all of a sudden like, “Oh, finally we're talking and I'm gonna have this…” Remember, you have to practice a certain level of restraint.
If it seems like they're up for that conversation, great. But you know — small moments, increments.
Then you could say something like, “So I was watching this webinar, and there was a woman who specializes in talking to kids about healthy sexuality, and she was discussing pornography as something that's really common. Do you think that's true? Do you think it's gendered? Do you think there are double standards? What do you think are some of the reasons why kids are looking to porn? What are they curious about?”
I think those are actually really poignant questions that would allow kids to become experts in what they understand and what they see.
And then you can move on to a conversation to say, “You know, here are the things that I think are really important to know about pornography. It’s not representative of most people's healthy choices. You know, a 10-minute sex scene could actually take four to six hours to create. It's typically contractual, not consensual. It’s really someone else's fantasy, and the most important fantasy is the one that comes from your own imagination.”
You know, all those different things — how young people watch porn, how the delivery device of a computer encourages a dopamine reward response, and what the impact of that may be. And that their sexuality and their sexual identity are actually being shaped and formed right now — and that watching pornography will have a hand in that.
I love this script because it feels doable. Like, starting with a movie or a TV show — it just feels doable, so thank you.
So thank you so much, Shafia Zaloom, and your book Sex, Teens, and Everything In Between gives precisely what parents need, which is the script. That has always been something that we heard from all our parents — “Yeah, but how do I start the conversation? What language do I use?”
So thank you for doing that, and thank you for being here with us.
Thank you so much for having me.