A conversation with Shafia Zaloom, author of "Sex, Teens, & Everything in Between!"

Transcript: A conversation with Shafia Zaloom, author of "Sex, Teens, & Everything in Between!"

Christine Koh: Hi everybody, welcome to AMAZE Live. This is very exciting. I was just here last week—well, not here, but I was live with another guest and now I'm live today with Shafia Zaloom. Hi, how are you?

Shafia Zaloom: Hi, good, thanks. Good to be here.

Christine Koh: Yeah, we're so thrilled to have you. I know you're in the middle of book craziness right now.

Shafia Zaloom: Yes.

Christine Koh: So, I would love you to know, it's just going to take a few minutes for people to kind of assemble, but I would love to start out. You have such a fascinating background and you do such incredible work. So, I would love for you to tell people a bit about yourself and what you do.

Shafia Zaloom: Okay, I'm a health educator. Originally, I was a social worker working with teenagers and really needed to—was inspired to get into preventative work versus working all the time in intervention. In my own experience, education and relationships were what I believed were the key to living a happy, healthy life. And so that was really how I got into health education in schools and started developing programs. That was 25 years ago—I've been doing this for 25 years—and I've just really been blessed with all kinds of opportunities and worked with thousands of families and their children, and they are truly my greatest teachers and inspiration. So, I do a lot of listening and teach in a lot of different places. I became the consent lady by default, really. So, you know, when I started having children, there was a woman and we were trying to figure out our schedules being with child care, and I picked up the health education piece in our program that was about human sexuality, and that was about 10 to 15 years ago. I really started to specialize in that, and then was approached to create a curriculum guide for documentaries and films. The first one was The Hunting Ground, which is about sexual assault on college campuses, and then Sold, with the movie about the sex trafficking of young girls, Trapped, which is about trapped causes, and then I consulted on Audrey and Daisy, which is a documentary film about sexually assaulted high school girls and the social media exploitation that took place afterward. So, it garnered media attention, which then put me out into the world, and I started consulting more broadly across the United States. So, I've had the opportunity to know a lot of different schools in different states and work with kids in those schools as well.

Christine Koh: Well, that's amazing and actually, you know, obviously it's the perfect segue to your book, which is—I have a copy here, I don't know how much this weighs—Sex, Teens, and Everything in Between. While I was just telling you before we hopped on, it was like real life 101 reading your book. You know, I have a 15-year-old and also an 8-year-old, and it covers so many things. I mean, consent, sexual harassment and assault, gender, porn, pleasure, bystander intervention. And I was also, you know, quite moved by the survivor’s stories and I was just curious about whether that was the inspiration into even writing the book, you know, just having all these stories with you all the time.

Shafia Zaloom: I think when I started to realize, you know, I'm so humbled and inspired by kids who share with open honesty with me, even though I'm still always the adult in the room. And I know when I would talk to people because of this media attention and I was traveling, they'd ask, "Do you have a book? How can we access what you're doing beyond you coming here for a couple of days or whatever it is?" And I didn't have a book at that time, so, you know, that was sort of the motivation and inspiration—people saying it would be such a contribution if you could actually put this in a package for us. And so that was really what it was. You know, when doing consent work and becoming the Consent Lady by default, going to different schools and empowering kids with language and knowledge about what this actually is, so many kids would come to me too. And so, I started, you know, talking to her, working with more survivors, and at the same time, it just became something really that was in the national discourse in the media, and it was always well-known people. But when you look at the statistics, it's everywhere and it's everyone, it's the people we love and we care about every day. It’s our neighbors. It's maybe our kid, it's our aunt or uncle or whoever it is. And so, you know, my mission since I've started this work was to humanize sexuality and provide information for young people. They eat it up. They are hungry for it. They just need a path. They want to do what's right. They need help enriching their loving relationships. They long for authentic connection. The greater culture is not empowering them to do that. In fact, it's the opposite and reverse. And we still live in a very sex-negative culture. And so, the sex-positivity that they are looking for—and that doesn't mean wanting to have sex all the time—that means wanting to connect with others, knowing what all this means, how to make sense of what they're seeing on TV, absorbing their feeds, the messages that they are getting that conflict. Just how to navigate this. So that was really the inspiration. So yes, absolutely, humanizing the issue of consent, nonconsensual acts, assault, and harassment is just clearly a problem in our country, in our culture. But also, the positive side of sexuality that so many can't see because no one is telling them that it can actually be good. And I don't want to say there's actually lots of us who are doing this work in really effective ways, but generally speaking, relative to how many kids are in schools and out there in the United States, they're not getting, you know, sex education first and foremost, and/or a positive lens by which to understand and learn this stuff.

Christine Koh: Yeah, absolutely. I couldn't agree more to that. Well, since you are the Consent Lady, you know, that is actually one of the things I wanted to start, and so let's talk about consent and setting the stage early, which is just so important. You know, I really like that in your book you wrote, "Asking for consent is not something that has to be hard or awkward. It's a natural human expression of caring and concern for another person." So, what would you say are the best ways for parents to start this conversation early, understanding that as parents we're often coming to the conversation bogged down by all these things, like thinking of our kids as sexual beings or whatever it is?

Shafia Zaloom: That's an added layer that can complicate this, because historically we separated sex from everything else, it seems, in how we talk about it and how we teach kids about it, but it really is integral to our overall well-being. So, when they start to talk about, let's say, elementary school kids— I mean, for me, I actually believe it starts when they start to talk. They learn about what is a nose or a knee or an elbow, that we're also including all those body parts, including genitalia, using the correct words, you know. It really is about normalizing the conversation about sexuality and sexual well-being. Children, they don't have an erotic lens. That is developed later in life, and so much of the time, we project that into our, you know, thinking about this when we want to talk to them about it, and it's just not true. So, with little kids, talking about space bubbles—so, you know, how to honor and respect someone's space. How we treat each other matters, narrating the emotional experience of people that we're witness to, especially with how our behavior impacts them, you know, things like that. Also teaching kids with language how to stick up for themselves—Girls Leadership does an amazing job at this with sunny behavior, brave body, eye contact. Expressing how we feel, giving kids the language to talk about feelings no matter what their gender. That's really how it starts. That’s what it looks like when they're little. Also, asking—good manners show we care about people, so I like to take the sex out of it for little kids because that's appropriate and important, and consensual work happens all the time in our lives. If I take your bike and go to the corner to buy a sandwich, if I have your consent, I'm borrowing it. But if I don't, I'm stealing it. If I hit you and I have your consent, we could be wrestling, boxing, playing. If I don't, it could be assault and really hurtful. You know, French fries tend to be my signature tease in trying to talk to kids about this because everybody likes French fries. Do you like French fries?

Christine Koh: Oh, I do. Yes, of course, that’s right.

Shafia Zaloom: So, adults, kids, any age. Right, so, little kids like French fries too. You know, I'll ask, "Do you like French fries? What kind of fries? And then what kind of sides do you like?" And sort of set it up so if you have fries on your plate down and you put your plate down and you’re at a table with your family or friends, what starts to happen? In a room of a hundred kids and adults, I would say, "How many of you are actually okay with that?" Nobody's raising their hands but no one's saying anything, for the most part, when that happens. You know, I guide people to say, "So what's not okay about that?" "Well, they didn't ask," or "What's so important about asking?" "That's respectful, that they care what your answer would be." Kids will say, "They're mine, they belong to me." So, you know, they're passionate about that—"They're mine, they belong to me, and they're taking them without asking." And how come no one says anything? And kids will say, "I've been taught to share," or "I don't want to cause— I don’t want to be judged. I don't want to make it awkward, but just French fries." So how does this relate to sexual consent? Well, it belongs to you, your body. Well, Emily Nagoski—people get to choose how to touch and get touched, their bodies belong to them. That's how we can talk about this with younger kids. And older people too—I mean, when I say a room full of parents, everyone suddenly starts thinking about the last time they spiced up their kid’s play.

Christine Koh: Well, yeah, food autonomy. Well, I just wanted to tell you a quick comment from Rosalino Rivera. She says, "Yes, need to educate them on all aspects." Thanks for commenting, which is reminding me to tell people that if you have questions for Shafia, who is the expert on consent in all manner of things, please drop them in the comments and we'll get them. And if you're coming to this later, also do the same and I'll be back in and try to get these questions answered. And one more thing I wanted to mention on that—I think I love the French fry analogy too, so on point, and just want to say, kids can be our teachers sometimes and I learned from my younger daughter when she was really, really little. She was just like, my older kid wanted all the hugs all the time. My younger one just wasn't into people. So, it became our thing to be like—my family is very physical—but I would say, "Okay Violet, do you want to give a high-five or a hug or nothing?" And she gives her that choice, and once she established that that was a choice and I later learned from the amazing girl on our team that that's a thing—like teaching kids those little simple things just signals that, yes, this is your body, it’s just really important. It was kind of an accidental discovery.

Shafia Zaloom: Yeah, to encourage ownership, bodily autonomy, to give kids choice, and that also reinforces that you honor her intuition, what her intuition is telling her, in an embodied experience, and that you're actually going to listen to her and respect her, believe her when she says that this isn't right for her and that she needs alternatives and options.

Christine Koh: Yeah, definitely. So there's—I read in your book that I admit I was like, sure, I have heard about this, but I’ve not heard about this—and so you talked about what I'd love for you to talk about is why "yes means yes" is better than "no means no," and I just had not heard "yes means yes" before, and it's not a distinction that I would love for you to share a bit about.

Shafia Zaloom: So, these are cultural statements and when you look at the legislation, "yes means yes" came about when the affirmative consent laws were being considered and being voted in, and the media picked up on it and decided to coin the phrase "yes means yes." So, it is a culture—that became a cultural, organic cultural reference. Before, "no means no" was sort of the mantra. The problem with "no means no" is that someone is going to get to a point of distress or to where they're so uncomfortable that they have to say no. We know that because of gender socialization and some other aspects of political identity. When you layer those things and they intersect with sexual interaction, sometimes people don't feel comfortable saying no, that they feel obligated to say yes, especially in gender dynamics and how they exist. The other piece is that sometimes when people are experiencing trauma, when they have fight, flight or freeze, that they actually freeze, make themselves feel smaller because they are trying to survive the situation that they feel is traumatic and not be able to actually, neurologically, say no. And so there are a lot of loopholes and problems with that statement. And ultimately, when it comes to sexual exploration and experiences, it should be good. That's the point, right? And so if we want to ensure that people are going to be safe, that we're protecting the fundamentals of human dignity, which is basically treating people like they have value, inherent value, then we would shift for a call for a dialogue and create laws that actually require people to look for yes. "Yes means yes" is that we are actually looking to affirm desire, that we are not waiting until it gets bad to the point that someone wants to stop it, that it actually is moving on a trajectory that's going to be positive. Because engaging in sexual exploration with someone who actually wants to engage in sexual exploration with you is a positive thing. Again, it's about how we treat each other and that matters completely.

Christine Koh: Yeah, that completely makes sense. So thank you for that. We have a question—I wish you could hear me, I have a little echo on my side, but can you hear me all right?

Shafia Zaloom: Yeah, okay.

Christine Koh: Okay. We have a question, and it is, what if a grandparent is talking to a child about their weight—so we're coming back to body and, you know, innocent stuff—and the parent doesn't feel that's appropriate to talk to them about weight at any age. How do you create—basically, the question is, how do you create boundaries, you know, with the relative without making it a huge deal?

Shafia Zaloom: I think it's really important that we as the adults have conversations as adults about those things at a different time and in a different context, without kids right there. A lot has to acknowledge that sometimes this happens spontaneously, so talk about both ways. So, if you can—you know, this does happen with my own parents all the time, my mom in particular—and I have to pull her aside and explain to her and say, "I understand that in terms of your experience, this is something that you learned, that you're noticing and talking to my kid about, and what I understand is that, and what I have learned through my own research, that actually to their detriment, that doesn't serve them well, and that it leads to negative body image, they aren't able to stick up for themselves. There's all kinds of information and I'm happy to share it. If you could please not do that, I'd really appreciate it." That's a hard conversation to have, especially with your parent, and the only people we can control are ourselves and how they may respond. Hopefully, it's going to be positive and supportive. It may not be. At the same time, if it is happening spontaneously, you can say, "I've noticed that we really just want to," or if you know, "I've noticed that this has happened," and talk to your child about it and say, "You know, your grandparent or whoever grew up during a different time where it was okay to say things like that, but we know from information that it's better not to, that actually being strong and healthy and able-bodied is what's most important. So I want to make sure you know," and sort of balance that out, talk to them about it, do a little intervention. If you are witness to the dynamic taking place right at that moment, you can intervene with that same statement to say, "Actually, it's really most important to be able-bodied and strong and healthy, and it's important to eat intuitively, so it's okay if you don't want to finish," or "I love your body the way it is. I see you being strong and it enabling you to play sports and all the things that you love and enjoy, so it's okay."

Christine Koh: Yeah, that's fantastic that you are also, you know, reinforcing that as parents. Like we're the ones who see our kids the most, you know, we are the ones who can kind of keep gently reinforcing those messages. So we have a lot of agency in, you know, what happens. I mean, like, of course even one comment—you know, we know that one comment can really sting. My older daughter had an issue with a coach and he made a comment about her body and I basically went over the deep end. I feel like it's a heartening thing that as parents, we can just keep it in a shift of really positive way, and that's a good thing.

Shafia Zaloom: Yeah, I mean, even my pediatrician said something to my own daughter and I also went off the ship. But you can find ways to diffuse without being mean or confrontational when you're witnessing this thing, to diffuse the situation in front of your kid and then have the adult conversation you need to with that person to follow up about, you know, where you're coming from and what's important and what your family's values are in how you want your kids to grow up and to feel good about themselves.

Christine Koh: And yeah, that's a great idea. The person who asked that question says, "Awesome, love that. It's not just to the grandparent but also to talk to the child and correct the message." That was helpful. Okay, so I want to talk to you about porn. It has been—oh my gosh—this week alone, it has been all over the media. I don't know if you saw the Celine special—she launched a podcast and it was the subject of her first episode. Just fascinating stuff, and we see a lot of conversation about it here, you know, people get really, really real about it. So in your opinion, what is one of the most active things parents can do to help kids understand porn, whether they're seeking it out intentionally or they stumble upon it accidentally? It's going to happen, right?

Shafia Zaloom: Part of it depends on the age of your child and if you think they have been exposed or if they are seeking it out. Those are two very different things. So, if they're coming across that, you can say, "There's something on the Internet," like you talk about all kinds of negativity on the Internet as well as positive, right? So, having that conversation with your child as a digital citizen about digital citizenship, how we use digital opportunities and devices as a tool and not just like the bigger world—cyberspace or the digital world. There are positive things and negative things and things in between that can be confusing. So, engage in conversation about what they may come across and how they might identify something that is negative and is not age-appropriate for them and then the positive stuff. You can also put, of course, filters on your computers—kids will get to a certain age where they actually need to be able to, for school, have those lifted—but I've been engaging in these conversations and scaffolding that message across time so they're prepared at that moment to understand, you know, what's appropriate and what isn't. If kids are seeking out porn, it is important not to shame them. It is important to acknowledge and validate that it is normal and natural to be curious about porn, to be drawn to porn. It's so pervasive, so accessible, and so many kids are watching it, you know, or have come across it, that we can't shame them about it because they'll just shut down and then that doesn't contribute to their sexual identity formation in any positive way. And then engage in dialogue—you know, in the book, I have a whole chapter, I don't know if you read it, in terms of ideas for people, the language and ways by which they can talk about porn. And what's real and what's not. Unfortunately, porn has sort of become the default sex education of our country, and people, because we are not teaching them, and the way we learn about things is to Google them. Kids come across that—they're looking to try and figure out what sex is about by watching porn because that's what's available. And, you know, the issue with that is that that's like watching The Fast and the Furious to learn how to drive. Like watching Transformers to learn about physics. You know, and that is not—it's a very narrow representation of sexuality. It's for entertainment purposes, not educational purposes. It is in many ways not consensual. It doesn't include a lot of important, safe sexuality and practices. Very normative in the high-speed Internet porn, the clickbait is notorious for being misogynistic and violence against women that's an exaggerated response. So you don't want to unload on your kid and dump all this stuff and talk about all this negativity but start to collect moments. It's the value of these small victories where you look for, you heighten your awareness of opportunity to insert a value, to have this conversation, to drop a couple sentences about your observation of it and then to move on. Do this over time and build upon your message. And I think that's really the most effective.

Christine Koh: Yeah.

Shafia Zaloom: Yeah, you have to give positive alternatives.

Christine Koh: Yeah, absolutely. I just started jotting down a couple things that I'll link up after the broadcast, but you know, one of the things that really, really hit the mark for me when I was listening to Katie Couric's podcast, and she had—I don't know if you know Al Vernacchio—he's a sexuality educator and author, and then he was talking about, you know, a general concept and how important—even if you don't want to talk to your kids about porn, which obviously I know that's difficult for parents—is just set the stage and, as you said, scaffold with talking about healthy relationships and, you know, respect and all those things, you know, those are things parents can definitely dig in and talk about. So I just wanted to encourage those listening, like start there, you know, I think that's a good place to start.

Shafia Zaloom: I was in a book—facilitating a book group last night and the same question came about porn and, you know what, it's really important—how early do I start having this conversation about porn? It's really normal and natural to be inspired to talk about the negativity, right, to protect our children. We need to be vigilant; we want to protect our kids to keep them safe. Whenever we perceive that may not be good for them or positive for their development, that's what we want to go to, but I actually suggest starting with what's positive and good. When you say the word respect, I'll walk into a room and be teaching a hundred high school seniors and I'll say, "How many of you have been taught to respect people, yourselves, and other people your whole lives?" And every hand will go up. Now, "Who can give me a definition?" and every hand goes down. And so we really need to be explicit with things about what we mean when we are talking, and role model effective and authentic communication to prose and what that does mean—exactly what does that look, sound, and feel like. Because lots of kids have actually misinformation and think that respect is treating people how you want to be treated. That is, treating others how they want to be treated. That requires empathy. So, engaging in these positive conversations about healthy relationships, what they look like and being explicit, and younger—actually all people. Another analogy I use for effective communication is think of a bear—did you read about this in the book? So, think of the bear, my kids like, you could think of a bird fly, you could do—you know, there are different ways to do this and engage your kids in fun conversation about how you could get creative with this concept, but I'll ask about the people in the room. "Think of a bear, the animal," and this comes from Dave, a lot of attention, he's amazing and I first learned it from him and just go with it. I'll say, "Think of a bear," so everybody thinks of a bear. See it in your mind's eye, think of what a bear looks like, what it's doing, then I ask people to start sharing their bears. You'll get brown bear, grizzly bear on the California flag, brown bear fishing on a stream, polar bear on a piece of ice, Yogi Bear, Smokey Bear, gummy bears, teddy bear. What's the takeaway? We all knew what a bear was, everybody's bear is different. Actual communication, when it comes to authentic communication, relationships that are productive, we have to take time to understand people's bears.

Christine Koh: Yeah, absolutely. Running short on time and I have a couple more questions I want to ask you, so I'm going to move to a different topic. You have—I mean, there's a lot about safety, you know, there's a whole chapter on it, and what struck me about this was I like how you frame it, that, you know, there's a reality that kids will need to make, you know, the best choice they can make, you know, in a difficult situation. So how would you recommend, you know, a parent handle a situation where, you know, they have a friend who is a bit of a boundary pusher and makes bad decisions, because, you know, it's kind of a dance, because you don't want to be so heavy-handed about, like, telling them about safety and all that so that they gravitate more toward that person, but you still want your kid to make good decisions. I know it's a big question.

Shafia Zaloom: So I think it's really important not to approach that with judgment. I encourage parents to get really curious about their kids. Not to ask why, because you've already made a judgment when you ask why, he knows that. Ask the what—what does it take, how does it feel, the how, the where—so that you are exploring and experiencing with your kid and what's going on. Also, if you want to make an observation, "I noticed you noticing that," to bring your child's consciousness to it. "I noticed that when you're with this person, this behavior happens. Let's talk about that. What do you think, is that okay? How does that feel to you? Is there something inside you that feels wrong?" Just making sure that your kid is clear on what's happening in the dynamic of their relationship, because they may not know. And we want to encourage them to have language and practice using language that authentically expresses their experience and identifies when things may not be in their best interest. I think that's the most important piece. I’m so sorry. I just need to plug in my computer really quick. Sorry. I thought it was in a viable one, but it needed the one below it. So I think that's super important, and you can give your kids the skills and the language to actually stick up for what they know to be right. So if they're hanging out with this kid—because you can push the kids further into that and shut them down by criticizing their friends and saying, "Don't do this." So instead, empower them to make decisions that honor the values you've been teaching them, and it's great practice too to stick up for themselves. So you could ask them, "So, what do you think is a good strategy? Because I know you care about being friends with this person, so and so. When you know something that they are doing isn't right, that doesn't work for you and your intuition, you know, when your gut is telling you, 'I shouldn't be doing this,' what can you say and do in that situation?" Really explore different options in terms of concrete language, instruction. You can always—I always offer to my children—that they can use me as an excuse for saying no to things. Because we have to remember that kids are not saying no to a substance, they are not saying no to a behavior, they are saying no to a relationship—the person offering it to them, whether it's a good time or, "Let's do something that I think would be cool, we'd be a shared experience," or, you know, trying to engage them in some sort of behavior that they think will be bonding. So we have to remember compassionately that kids aren't really saying no to that part that we want them to say no to; they feel like they are saying no to the person, the relationship that's offering it.

Christine Koh: Mind blown—that is like such a crazy and important distinction that I had not thought of yet. So personally, thank you, but also for everybody, that's amazing. So I want to close with one question. I mean, it's—again, it's a big one—but, you know, as parents, you know, how do we turn the tide against this culture that teaches girls, in your words, "Don't push, don't be assertive. Don't make a fuss."

Shafia Zaloom: So that's the gender paradigm. And I think it's important that we include all genders in that conversation because the gender norms that exist in our culture—which are pretty exclusive and binary by design—reinforce each other. A lot of times we tend to talk about them separately according to gender and in a gendered way, when we actually have to talk about them together, because they intertwine and they reinforce each other. So, you know, when it comes to that in particular—you mentioned girls—talk about what the gender paradigm is, to ask, be curious about what are some of the messages you've gotten so far about being a girl. And what do you think is real and what do you think we should aspire to? There's the world we want to live in and then the world we actually live in, and how do we navigate that? Those are the conversations to have with our kids and to make it age-appropriate for your child when you ask these questions based on the messages they are getting, because the messages shift and evolve as they get older, right? So, what does that look like for a younger girl versus an adolescent girl versus a woman, because we all get these messages at different levels and intensities. So, you know, what is the embodied experience? What is your child hearing? Is it impacting them? And providing different ways to think about what it means—you're providing more options for kids in terms of how they can be and identify their gender.

Christine Koh: Yeah, so helpful. This has been an amazing conversation. I really, I can't thank you enough. After the broadcast, I'll be linking up a bunch of things that we talked about and your work, and of course your book, which I hold up and recommend that everybody—gosh, I can't get this framing right—it's really, I mean, it's so real, it's such a fascinating read and it just—like, this is the stuff that we have to deal with so much and help prepare our kids for. So thank you so much for your time today. It was just really great to talk to you today.

Shafia Zaloom: Thank you for your interest.

Christine Koh: Alright. Take care everybody, and if you come into this broadcast later, I just wanted to remind you to ask your questions and I will get them answered. And till next time, guys. Take care.

Listen to the original recording: Here