Real Sex Education for Today’s Teens
What does real sex education actually look like for today’s teens?
In this featured talk hosted by the Harvard Graduate School of Education, educator Shafia Zaloom shares her insights on why traditional approaches to sex education fall short—and what young people truly need instead.
Watch the talk here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_0O1bAX8WI
Below is the full conversation, edited for clarity and readability.
Transcript:
Speaker 1
Hi, everyone. Thank you for joining us. We are going to be starting right now. Wonderful. Hello, everyone. Thank you all for joining us today and welcome to the Guttman Library Book Talk for Getting Real About Sex Ed: What Today's Students Need. My name is Shannon Davis and I'm Senior Acquisitions Editor at Harvard Education Press. Today, it is my great pleasure to introduce you to Shafia Zaloum, author of Getting Real About Sex Ed, which just published by Harvard Education Press last week. Shafia Zaloum is a health educator, parent, consultant, and author whose work centers on human development, community building, ethics, and social justice. Shafiya has worked with thousands of children and their families in her role as a teacher, coach, administrator, board member, and outdoor educator. Shafiya is currently a health teacher at the Urban School in San Francisco, has taught courses here at HGSE, and developed curricula and trainings for schools across the country. Her work has been featured by many media outlets, including The New York Times, The Washington Post, USA Today, NPR, KQED, and PBS. and she has served as sex education consultant for eight seasons of the Netflix series Big Mouth. She is the author of Sex, Teens, and Everything in Between. Getting Real About Sex Ed is her second book. Shafia, thank you for being here today. It is also an honor for me to introduce our moderator for today's book talk. Please welcome Richard Weisward, Senior Lecturer at HGSE. His work focuses on moral development, the nature of hope, vulnerability, and resilience in childhood, parenting, and effective schools and services for children. He has been an advisor on family policy at the city, state, and federal level, and his writing has appeared in publications such as The New York Times and The Washington Post, among other national media outlets. He is the author of The Parents We Mean to Be and The Vulnerable Child. Welcome, Dr. Weissward, and thank you for being here today.
Speaker 2
It's great to be here, Shannon. Thank you.
Speaker 1
And thank you to Gottman Library for hosting this book talk. So we'll listen to your conversation and then reserve the last 15 minutes for Q&A from our viewers. So with that, I'll turn it over to you, Shafia and Richard.
Speaker 3
Thank you.
Speaker 2
Why don't I get us started? Thank you, Shannon, for this lovely introduction. A pleasure and honor to be here. I'm a huge Shafiya fan. She has been an important, my go-to person on care and ethics and sexuality and love. She just has great wisdom and I'm delighted to be in this conversation with her today. She's also been a friend and mentor to my daughter, so I'm very appreciative of that. Shafiya, why don't we just start with, I think people would love to hear a little bit about you, about how you got into this work and about what motivated this book.
Speaker 3
Thank you. Yeah, so I actually, I mean, I'm 30 years in, right? So I'll try and be brief about what sort of inspired me to pursue this work. And honestly, the moment happened a long time ago, three decades ago, I was social working and I worked with dual, triple diagnosed youth who were in residential treatment as an alternative to incarceration. They were all, and the residential treatment was for drug addiction, and they were all wards of the court. They had caused harm, but also experienced harm. And when I was looking to, you know, I had done it for several years and was honestly experiencing burnout, it was super intense. I had really come to appreciate, care about, and love these kids. And when I thought about, you know, prevention versus intervention, which is the, you know, the intervention was the focus of what we were doing, and I thought of prevention. Upon reflection, what had really, you know, consistently been present in these kids' lives that had sort of failed them was school and the potential for positive adults in their lives and relationships. And so school and relationships, and I had had my own really wonderful education, I felt like was the opportunity to do preventative work so that we wouldn't need as much intervention. And that pointed to health education. And it was really relationships and my own, you know, education being in schools that had really provided an incredibly affirming and safe and you know, positive place for me to navigate adolescence that made a difference. And so that's how it started. So I pursued and, you know, the universe had sort of presented me with an opportunity to develop a health program at a school with a head of school who is really Bodhi Brisendine, who is really looking to create something different. So not like the mean girls scene where you have a coach getting up in front of the classroom saying, you know, if you have sex, you will get chlamydia and die, which of course we know is not necessarily true, but rather something that was psychoeducational, psychodynamic that really addressed the real issues that kids were wrestling with at the time and how to co-create something like that with students so that we elevated their voices and they could have a say. And that was in the early, the mid-90s, the early to mid-90s for me. And so it just kind of took off from there and evolved from there.
Speaker 2
Yeah. Tell me a little bit about this book specifically and what, you know, but before we do that, when you said you had, it sounds like you had a really positive sex education experience yourself. And I'm wondering what that experience was like and where it happened.
Speaker 3
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it really, it wasn't at home. And I have a lovely relationship with my parents. I mean, of course, during adolescence, there was certainly plenty of contention. But this was not something that was ever talked to me about in my own upbringing from my parents. And so school was really where it was provided for me. And I went to a boarding school. My parents lived abroad outside of the country, and I went to a boarding school. And it was really there that I discovered how positive relationships with clear boundaries with adults and also a comprehensive sexuality education. I was, Carol Hotchkiss is one of the pioneers in this work, and she was, I was her second class of students at this school where she was really trying on something comprehensive, something positive, something that was anchored in real relationships and providing kids with information so that they could make an ethical quandary around sexuality and decision-making, it was such a tremendous benefit. And so that's really where it came from, was these positive relationships I had with other adults in different realms of life, but then also a formal class. It was, you know, like an issues and choices kind of class, where we were not only given information, but engaged in ethical, critical thinking around decision making.
Speaker 2
Yeah, great. So let's return to the other question about this book and why this book, why now? What's the passion that fires this book?
Speaker 3
You know, it's really interesting because it actually, in many ways, was inspired by the classes I was teaching here at the Harvard Graduate School of Education. So we had created, I was teaching classes about gender and sexuality and noticing that folks were really interested in this work, but at a crossroads of... you know, I guess contention, but not not necessarily in a negative way, but just realizing it had highlighted how little education they had themselves in this area and how they were trying to guide young people to positive relationships and understanding of of all of this, but didn't have the education themselves to be to call upon to do it. And so in a lot of my classes, students were asking for the the sexuality education they never got. which was interesting because they said, you know, you're we're talking calculus and we haven't had basic arithmetic. So can we go back and can we actually supplement? And more and more realized they didn't know what they didn't know. And we're sort of eating this stuff up and realizing and saying things like, oh, if I had only had this education when I was a young person, it would have made such a difference. And then I taught a class called sexuality in schools. And they were saying the same thing, that like, okay, how are we supposed to guide kids? 'Cause it's coming up in all these different areas of education and educational spaces, not just a classroom, right? Like on the play yard, in the lunch line, when they were settling a class, when they were dismissing a class, in the hallways. And being at a bit of a loss and finding in those organic conversations that, they would default to how they were socialized, which was historically kind of stigmatized. So like fear, avoidance, shame versus the care, love and affirmation that they were actually looking to guide them with. And so what was the language? What were the strategies? You know, we did a lot of case study work. And then simultaneously, Shannon contacted me. I was thinking about, okay, this need, how can we scale it? in terms of this information and get it to educators who are navigating this on the daily. And then Shannon was like, I think there's a need for this. Are you interested? And it was sort of this beautiful moment. And I said, You know I teach at the graduate school, right? I was teaching a class at the time and she's like, I didn't know that. And so it was sort of a wonderful, serendipitous moment of, Oh, okay, maybe we can do something in this collaboration to really support folks in what they're trying to, how they're trying to help kids.
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah. This is super interesting. But when you say that people didn't have information or information or maybe comfort, what kind of information did they not have? I mean, was this about anatomy or pleasure or ethics of sexuality or I'm just, I'm curious. Yeah.
Speaker 3
It was actually all of it, that they were really missing all of it. So many people had just sort of a clinical kind of puberty talk that was a few days in middle school. And now we're talking about people who are full-fledged adults. Yeah. And then so information and modeled for them, what's the language that's inclusive, that provides the information in a way that also includes how we apply that information to like real life relationships and interpersonal dynamics, right? How to do that in their role as an adult. So it wasn't modeled by other adults, right? Like how you would actually do that with important and clear boundaries. And then the other part of it was the ethical piece. So how do we actually then go beyond just the information to talking about navigating relationships, including this information in that navigation process? And then guiding kids to discover for themselves what their values are, what their family's values are, how to make ethical choices, how to take care of each other, because that really matters, especially in communities of learning. And those were the things that they were missing themselves, that they had not experienced. And then they were left to their own devices as adults to figure out their own relationships, and in some ways really struggled on how to reflect upon that to give it meaning in a way that really sort of contributed in positive ways to their own relationships as adults. Yeah.
Speaker 2
And I assume you had students from all over the world. Is that right?
Speaker 3
That is correct. And that made it incredibly interesting. So, you know, we'd have students who are from rural, rural Massachusetts or Virginia. And then we'd have people from like Texas and Tennessee, and then we'd have people from, you know, Afghanistan and Pakistan and China and Indonesia and different communities of faith too, right? And different sexuality educations that came through social learning. So we're all in gender and sexuality school all the time, right? Especially as you're growing up. There's what's directly taught and explicit, and then there's what's implicit and how we're socialized in all of these things, for sure.
Speaker 2
Yeah, great. So I'm going to shift gears a little bit. So I'm interested in your sense of the state of sex ed in the country and, you know, in a way, and the political moment we're in and how this book is going to land, given the state of sex ed in the country and the political moment. And, you know, in a sense, who you're hoping to persuade, but also what are the landmines out there that you're concerned about?
Speaker 3
Yeah, I mean, sexuality education, I feel like for a long time now has actually been a struggle. And there's been a lot of inconsistency around what kids get. So, you know, When I first started this work, in particular, only half of the United States actually even required that sexuality education be a part of a high schooler's public education. And then, you know, in the last decade or so, only 10 states even require something as fundamental as consent be a part of that education. And so typically, depending, it really depends on the state and where you are, what's required. And then there's actually, district to district, what there's funding for, what there are teachers who are trained to do this work for, what's actually being done and when, how that's interpreted and delivered. And so, and a lot of times it's really sort of this disaster prevention, you know, safe sexuality practices, which are super important. but encased in this kind of, you know, contextualized in this avoidance kind of vibe. And then, of course, there's always absence only education, which has been proven through congressional research to actually not benefit kids in terms of their well-being. And there's a lot of misrepresented, you know, representation of of what's happening because there's no empirical evidence. I find The biggest obstacle and why adults might put political ideology over student health is that we think if kids know they're going to go do right, we actually spend more time on fire prevention and safety than we do on sexual education for kids. And when we do all this fire prevention education, kids don't go home and start building fires, right? Like there's no empirical evidence whatsoever that tells us That, if we talk to kids in cognitively congruent, developmentally appropriate, ways around comprehensive sexuality education. that they're going to go out and all the things that we're afraid of, right? Like is that they will then prematurely become sexually active, they won't have agency, they're going to become promiscuous, you know, all of that thinking. The inverse is actually what's true. And that's what we have evidence for, is that if we create these responsibly balanced, comprehensive sexuality education, classes and and and give this to kids that they will exercise a sense of agency. They will delay because it's going to be within an individual sense of readiness, sexual decision making. And if they do, they will be responsible and use prevention around sexually transmitted infections and or unintended pregnancy, those sort of things. So. In many ways, the state of sex ed right now, we've put adults at the center where we've put political ideology above student health versus what we know to be true for kids. There's also, I believe at this moment, 200 plus pieces of legislation to roll back comprehensive sexuality education in schools across the country. So there's an anti-sexuality education surveillance that's happening right now. to roll it back because it includes topics such as gender and sexuality identities. And so that, of course, is concerning to me in many ways, because we actually know this is what students need. CSE As you know, Rick, like comprehensive sexuality education is really about how we treat each other because it matters. It's about character development. It's about moral development. It's about citizenship. It's about being a part of a community. It's about care and love and all those important things that we know kids need to thrive and actually be receptive to then performing academically at their full potential.
Speaker 2
Yeah. So You mentioned a few landmines, but I just would want to explore this a little more with you. So when this legislation gets rolled back, it's, I assume, around LGBTQI issues, it's around trans issues. But is it also you think about pleasure and women having pleasure and our discomfort about talking about that? You also mentioned that it's people think sex is going to make people, kids want to have sex when the reverse is true.
Speaker 3
Yeah.
Speaker 2
You know, I'm wondering what you think. I'd love to hear you say more about what the resistance is and what we can do about it too. Like, how do we persuade people who don't share our idea, you know, our beliefs about this? Yeah.
Speaker 3
So I think that's a really big part of it. I think the socio-political history of sex stigmatization in our country has informed a lot of these decisions and the fear that people have, right? Like that something bad will happen if we teach kids about this stuff. And I do think that, you know, in terms of... this balance of responsibility and pleasure. Again, we are socialized to think about this in a way that actually doesn't serve us. And so to create generational shifts, we have to make those changes. But if you look at the Dutch, for instance, which is a really good example, right? They start CSE in kindergarten and it follows them throughout life. And it is a balance of responsibility and pleasure that when it comes to sexual expression and exploration, it'd be joyful. that it be affirming, that it enrich our lives, right? And they have some of the lowest unintended pregnancy rates in the world and STI rates in the world. And their young people are far more relational than American peers. So there's that piece.
Speaker 2
They're different about, don't they, aren't sleepovers okay too?
Speaker 3
Yes, I mean. I mean, they have a very open, affirming, and for parents.
Speaker 2
Parents in a park or a car, parents are... Right. Yes.
Speaker 3
Well, and they can do that because they've started this education from the beginning. And because parents are actually modeling a very sex positive, and that doesn't mean a free for all. It means like a responsible, self-reflective, anchored in like integrity and self-awareness. awareness, right? Like education within the context of sexuality from the beginning. Because parents are also modeling that. Their cycle, their generational cycle is overall very positive in that way, right? Which is why that's happening. And if we want to create those shifts, you know, we have a lot to learn from them. And I think some of the resistance is coming from, you know, there's varying levels, and I talk about this in the book to identify it, because we also need a greater definition of our problem. And I think the overall umbrella and what to take away from this is that we're not talking about the same things, right? Like when people, the adults in this country engage in conversations about sexuality, because their own sex education has been so inconsistent. and different, right? That when we think we're talking about one thing, we're actually talking about different things and making assumptions. It's very assumption-laden that we're not talking about the same thing, so there's a lot of room for miscommunication. And it feels very judgmental that people have to somehow abandon their values to talk about this in productive ways. So when it comes to resistance, I think one source of it, which tends to be very one-to-one individual, is that people are unsure and insecure because they don't have their own education and they're not sure what their school might be teaching their kid, and they're feeling nervous about that. So one way to address that, especially as educators in educational spaces, parents generally don't like surprises. is to roll out, to have, you know, initial, to have some form of communication, especially in the younger years with parents about what's going on in a classroom, what's the ES, you know, what's the SEL, because that's sexuality education really in the younger years. Like, what does that look, sound, and feel like in the classroom? And having points of contact and communication and modeling that, right, for kids, 'cause that's CSE. between amongst the adults around what that is, and not calling people out, but calling them in. So if there is an issue, to invite people in for conversation. And strategic questions, this is Fran Peavey's work. It's, you know, anchored in research. It's been around for a couple decades. I think it's excellent. Strategic questions where we avoid why. Like it's pretty basic in terms of non-judgmental language, right? So when we get really curious with people and listen more and talk less, most people just want to feel seen and heard when we meet this resistance. So leading with what, how, avoiding why, because you've already made a judgment if you lead with why. For observational, you know, statements or trying to include that in your conversation, I notice, I wonder, help me understand. get really genuinely curious about where people are coming from. The how questions like, you know, well, you know, how does that feel? How do you see that happening? What would it take? What is it exactly that is bringing this up for you? What's being activated? You know, and really being present to listen and understand. Those are the things that I think are a great start, right? right? And then there's other forms of resistance that have to do with conflicting value systems. And the non-judgmental language that I just rolled out can really help because that inspires difference, understanding across difference without people feeling like they have to abandon their values. And you can say things like, huh, okay, I hear you saying, and reflect back what people are saying, right? Like mirror words. And you can still say, and I think I see it differently, and share your own. Or this is what I've learned. How can we come together to compromise? I mean, circle back, right? Like that's what relationships are all about, that's what we actually wanna model for young people. And so in those moments when there are conflicting values to say, okay, so let's keep the kid at the center because that's what we can both agree upon, right? And how can we do that? How can we come to some conclusions and work together? The school requires this kind of information because as professionals, we understand and know it's gonna be helpful for them. How are they going to receive that? In what way? How do we build accountability into that, different from punishment, right? right? What are the questions we ask each other and what information, what checkpoints can we, what can we connect on, right? How are we in contention with each other, but what are the things that we can start with, with the kid at the center that we can agree upon, that we want for that child? And then there's resistance that has to do with outside groups. or actually sort of a rallying of typically some a small group of people who are resistant and it it's what used to be the petition in the carpool line right and now is taken to digital platforms um and that we focus on methods and um you know when we deal with that resistance is the method of resistance because it doesn't really serve communities right? Versus like engaging people in conversation and trying to find ways where we can find those compromises and what we hold in common. And then there's outside organizations. They typically don't even have a child in the school and they're drumming up trouble in all these different ways. And you just address that like you would bullying because that's pretty much what that is.
Speaker 2
Let me ask a question about parents in relation to this. It's a big question, and you can jump in wherever you want. But I'm thinking about the ways in which fathers talk to their daughters and their sons and their non-binary children about sexuality and what seems most important, and how mothers talk to their sons at this point in time, and particularly with the manosphere becoming an issue for a lot of young people. And I just took a quick story. You know, I think I had a big shift in my parenting. I have, as you know, I have a daughter. I have two sons that are older brothers, and we were very protective of her. And I remember coming to a point where we were watching Grey's Anatomy together, and Little Gray was, I don't know if you ever watched Grey's Anatomy. Oh, yes.
Speaker 3
But you remember.
Speaker 2
Little Gray was having this affair, it wasn't an affair, it was a relationship with McSteamy, the actor. Yes, indeed.
Speaker 3
Eric Dane's character, yes.
Speaker 2
A couple of weeks ago. And I'm watching this with Sophie, and Sophie's probably 14 or 15 at the time, and Little Gray says to McSteamy something like, You have to teach me, like you have to teach me about sex. I was troubled by it. I said to Sophie, you know, you really have to assert what you need in a relationship with a man and be very clear about your pleasure because men are probably not going to be organized around your pleasure and they should be. And she said to me, if you ever say anything like that to me again, I'll never speak to you. But it was, I felt like it was an important thing to say. And, and I feel like We have to talk about pleasure with our kids, care, ethics, consent, pleasure. And that men especially have a lot of work to do in talking about this. But anyway, I'm interested in your thoughts.
Speaker 3
Yeah, I mean, there was so much in that, right? I feel like we could have a whole class, a whole workshop on this, and it's really important. And I think this is also, this would be a moment where a lot of adult students would chime and say, hang on a second, right? Because we're talking about what would we say to this kid? But there's so much in that, that someone would have to reflect upon and understand with clarity for themselves first, so that we don't project those things into or put them on our kid in that conversation, no matter who the kid is, right? Like, because we always want to have those boundaries. And I think that absolutely it's so important. So I think there's the world we want to live in and the world we actually live in, right? And if you're living on the grid of reality, it is true that when it comes to how we socialize kids in binary ways, right? 'Cause we wanna talk, we wanna honor and recognize non-binary youth. And I feel like a lot of times, Sexuality in media, 'cause you bring up grays, and that's where a lot of kids are learning about it. And Common Sense Media did a whole study in 2017 called The Talk, which is all about watching gender and how these gender roles and dynamics play out and how kids try to recreate them then in their actual in-person relationships, right? Especially when they're first learning and first exploring. And this sense of agency and advocacy. And ultimately, the world we want to get to is going to be one that's more sex-positive, in which there's... It's intimate justice, which means that identity actually doesn't determine whose pleasure is prioritized over someone else's, which is sexual injustice, right? But rather there's an equity in a relationship and it's reciprocal where you don't have one person who has this onus of like always initiating and another person who, you know, shoulders the onus of like being a gatekeeper, right? Which tends to be incredibly gendered, male, female, right, like in terms of our society. but rather there's a reciprocity and a sharing that's really anchored in pleasure for both people. That's mutual responsibility. And only with that responsibility can we experience pleasure because we know through the sexual science. our biggest sex organ is our brain, that if we're worried because things are irresponsible for any reason, either not our consent not being respected, or that we might be past something or end up pregnant or whatever, that we don't have that capacity to experience pleasure, right? So that that's what we wanna go for, is something that's equitable, that's shared, that feels meaningful, where identities don't come into play to dictate and determine that. The world we actually live in is very different. And so as caretaking adults, talking to kids about those things in very real ways, I think is important that we narrate that and what we observe and notice and what we hope for them. I think that's a really important piece. We hope, or my hope for you is that you will evolve into relationships that are, you know, mutual, that are anchored in mutual care, affirmation, dignity, responsibility, so that you can, so they enrich your lives, right.
Speaker 2
Yeah, joy, pleasure.
Speaker 3
Joy, pleasure, so that it's enriching to your life. And in getting there, The society and the culture, and a lot of that comes in through media because it sells. Sex is everywhere and nowhere all at once, right? So kids are constantly bombarded. You know, this is a 26-year-old statistic from the American Academy of Pediatrics that adolescents are exposed to 14,000 references to sexuality a year. That is the implicit education, right, that they're getting. And that's 26 years old, that statistic. Can you imagine what it is now? So their ideas are being shaped. And if as a caretaking adult, you're not talking to kids about sexuality, you're the only one not talking to them about sexuality. And this is a dialogue we want to be a part of, right? So to guide them towards what we aspire to and to say, because of this reality, it's important that we get clear on agency and advocating for ourselves and the skills to communicate and the capacity to actually put those skills to work. And so we say things like that and it's gendered. And I think the conversation also, we have to be so careful that we balance it not only with it's important for you to figure out what you want and have the skills and the language to be able to advocate for yourself and to say to other people in gendered ways, I notice or what I understand and help me, you know, let's explore this together is that You may think or assume that this is what someone wants, and we actually, here's the language and strategies to ask them, and to pay attention, and to check ourselves when we find ourselves making that assumption. That's easier said than done, especially when we're talking to kids who are exploring this for the first time, because a lot of adults have issues with this too. With my first book, you know, and I imagine it's going to start to happen and actually has with the second one, which is why people requested a sex ed class before being able to guide kids, is parents would come up to me and say, you know, I had to read your book twice because the first time I was thinking so much about my own experiences and trying to make meaning and sense of them in this different way of framing them and thinking about them. that I had to, it was such a distraction, I had to then read it again with my kid in mind and how as an adult I would guide them towards this. So yeah, so I think that when it comes, now the manosphere is a whole other thing.
Speaker 2
Yeah, well, I want to ask you about the manosphere. I mean, I was thinking about it just in terms of the degree to which it is reinforcing some male hierarchical things in sexuality and love that are just deeply troubling.
Speaker 3
Oh, for sure.
Speaker 2
But also the manosphere and what's going on with Epstein too. I mean, you know, this is also a part of the climate we're in. I'd love your thoughts about both of those things.
Speaker 3
Yeah. I mean, I think there's been so much in the media, you know, this is something that's been concerning, like relevant and relevant right now. for those of us who talk about this and work in educational spaces, because I'm hearing and witnessing so many adults in spaces that kids navigate talk about this, right? Like Epstein, retrials coming up, sorry, Epstein, all the things that are being revealed on a regular basis, Weinstein, because his retrial is coming up. And last two weeks ago, he gave an interview out of Rikers to the Hollywood, I think, press. And then, of course, Cesar Chavez and sort of what's happening with that. And no one's talking to kids about it. And some, I don't want to minimize that some people are, but generally speaking, I'm not hearing a lot of discourse and conversation about how kids can understand and make meaning of this. It's more just like shut things down, like take names off of things. you know, demonize one person in particular, but not really talking about, well, what's the culture that creates a platform for these sort of things to happen? How do we make sense of this as young people, especially because the predatory behavior targeted young people, you know, things like that. And then we have the Manosphere and Into the Manosphere, which just came out, right, like that documentary film, Louis Throws, documentary film, which is also shining light on a lot of the things that can be incredibly troubling. And I just watched it a couple of nights ago. And my first, the question I was asking myself is like, where is the love? Where is the love? It is about money. It is about doing whatever it takes to make money. I mean, it is people literally saying, I'm going to promote this and I'm going to connect with young people and kids, and I'm going to say all of these things for the attention currency. and because it makes money. And like, oh, you know, I believe these other things in my life. And a lot of that, and this is my personal opinion, and I think there are other people who speak to this too, need for that can come out of trauma. And I think a lot of that trauma originates from not creating space for young men in particular to embrace their full humanity. that they're not allowed to have these multidimensional aspects of what it means to be a man, which is to care and to love and to create a sense of safety, versus the sort of external attention-grabbing, in many ways, material things that give people status. And we see this in middle schools. In particular, there's a peak of how kids use things like sexuality, negotiating gender politics on the play yard, you know, things like that to explore power and what, you know, dynamics of power and what comes from status. And we can talk about what that looks, sounds and feels like at different developmental stages, but this is what's happening in the manosphere and the issue is that young you know, men, in particular boys, are looking to adults in all kinds of different ways to understand and make meaning of what it means to be a boy or a man or become a man. And, you know, true to this popular culture, they're going to look to digital spaces, too, to find a sense of affirmation. Because what's out there, this is the whole thing around sexuality being everywhere and nowhere all at once, there's all these cultural scripts. Every classroom I teach in, I'll get in the anonymous question box. What's the patriarchy and how come everybody thinks I'm doing it? No one's talking to these kids about like the cultural scripts and what they have, you know, they're feeling, the pressure they feel to read from them, that they're defaulting to them because they're not sure, because they're not getting explicit and concrete guidance because that's where their cognitive development is. and how to actually apply meaning to it. Like, what does that actually look, sound, and feel like? And what's actually going to serve me in my relationships and social connectedness down the line? And what I'm thinking and feeling right now, because... I'm an adolescent and things feel insecure and the culture's telling me to do one thing, but then I get backlash from that. So what am I supposed to do? And where am I supposed to go? So they hit these echo chambers that are like, nope, just keep reading from the script and we will accept you for whoever you are. And it's easy. It's in their pocket. And they don't have to work for it, they don't have to ask for it, they don't have to make themselves vulnerable for it because developmentally, There are some really appropriate things that they're feeling like insecure and self-conscious and all those things. They're looking for affirmation. And if it doesn't come in positive ways from the places that are right in front of them that are caring and loving, right, then they're going to look to digital platforms for it, those echo chambers elsewhere.
Speaker 2
Yeah. I want to just encourage everyone to put your questions in the chat. Whatever is on your mind. I'm going to ask one more question, and then we'll go to the chat. I see Victoria saying love is very important. I want to talk to you about love. Yeah. But before doing that, are you finding in your work with-- in your sex ed work that there are messages with boys, young men, that are effective, that are moving them away some from--?
Speaker 3
100%. And I just want to recognize that, like, as a woman talking to young boys and young men, like I can I can only talk so much about certain things that we really need so many more male role models. And I am seeing this emerge, right? Who are talking about the value of love, who are talking about healthy vulnerability. And I just want to say that, like, so vulnerable, healthy vulnerability is our greatest measurement of courage.
Speaker 2
Of bravery because-- Yeah, so I guess I was going to say two things. One is that I really want to-- sorry to cut you off. I want to hear what you have to say. But I think it's really important for men to talk to boys. And I think it's really important for women to talk to boys and men too. I just wanted to say that. I say this to my students all the time. Particularly in schools where the great majority of Teachers are women. It's really important that women find ways to talk to men and boys about this. But I also really agree with the word that you just said that, and a lot of people disagree with me about this, but when we use words like empathy and care with boys and men, sometimes that land, sometimes it's experience is feminine. When we look, we use words like it takes courage to really love somebody deep, wisely and well and be vulnerable. I think we may get farther. So anyway, it continues.
Speaker 3
I completely agree. And we want to be culturally responsive in our work too. Like, I don't want that to get lost in this conversation because in our ever diverse world, on the one hand, we also want to honor and respect certain cultural aspects of things and the intersectionality of that, right? And that I feel like courage is a word that speaks to a lot of different ethnicities and communities in particular. I just think it reaches a broader audience. And I think that language all the time needs to be evolving and our use of language needs to be in response to what we're going for, right? And this sort of mutual dignity that comes from care and love. And courage is a really big one. Like I always, you know, I'll challenge my students to come up with an example of an act of bravery that didn't require a moment of healthy vulnerability, which means, you know, emotional and or physical risk without knowing what the outcome would be. There is always one. And so much of the time, you know, kids are sponges, not filters, and we want to teach them to be filters, not sponges, especially in digital spaces. around vulnerability being weakness, equated with weakness, and that's something adults actually reinforce a lot of the time. We have to shift that narrative and help people understand that vulnerability is truly something courageous and brave, especially when talking to young men. So I talk about that a lot. I think it's a both and. I think that we all need to be talking to young men in particular about this, but that when someone, a boy is looking to understand masculinity, especially if we're trying to create counter narratives, because I think women have been socialized to be more emotional, you know, in terms of EQs and things like that, for men to demonstrate that, I think really gives some powerful role modeling. to kids. And so the love piece is huge. Like, you know, what is love? We have to be talking to kids about love more. I was, you know, gosh, when was it in the mid 2000s? I became known as the consent lady because I would travel everywhere and was teaching about consent because of affirmative consent legislation. And it was really part of the national discourse. And and I was the consent lady, you know, and and People then assume this work is really about, is about consent, but it's not. It's about love and connection. It's about capacity, you know, it's about cultivating the capacity to love and be loved. That is what CSE is ultimately all about. And when I watch that documentary film about the manosphere, when I hear about red pill culture and all these things that are coming, that are happening within it, I'm like, where is the love? Where is the love not only for self, But where is the love for each other and community? And what are we valuing and prioritizing? You know, I invoke what you highlight that Freud says, the two most important things in our lives are work and love. And we spend so much time and resources and investment in work to produce, right? And always when I present a parent audience with that notion of like, and what are we investing in the capacity to love and be loved? eyes get really big, right? And they're like, oh, and as modern parents, people want this like they'll, but they're checking the boxes right around, okay, safe sexuality practices, consent. I'm talking to my kids about this stuff. But we have to also talk to kids about what we want them to aspire to. Caring, loving relationships that are anchored in mutual dignity, you know, in dignity. It's just so important. I'm resurrecting that word. Dignity, you know, simply meaning we treat ourselves and others like we have value. That is a humanitarian, that is bringing your humanity to relationships. And that is something I feel like we can all agree upon within a context of universal value, right, when it comes to ethics. And so love, you know, and what that looks, sounds, and feels like when we're talking to kids is intimacy. You know, so much of the time we only talk about intimacy within a realm of romantic and or sexual physical intimacy. And there's so many different types of intimacy. Like what does it look, sound and feel like to actually be close to someone? And I have so many students when I start talking about intimacy say like, okay, like that's the definition, but what does that mean? And they say that about things like consent and they say that about things like dignity and respect. Like, you know, they'll say, my parents are constantly telling me, respect women, respect women. They're like, but what does that mean exactly? And this is where we fall short as adults, and we also are lacking in our education, is being really concrete for kids, because that's where they are cognitively about what that looks, sounds, and feels like, and following them with that. and tying that and connecting that to love. We do a whole unit on love. In my class, it follows the lifeline of a romantic relationship from, you know, the self to initiating a relationship. How do we actually ask someone out? How do we build that relationship? How do we navigate the ethical sort of decision making of it and growth? How do we then embrace fun, joy, pleasure while being responsible? How do we navigate conflict? And then we fall in love. And kids eat that up. And I've just expanded that unit so much more because they love it. It becomes a love fest. And it's about inquiry and curiosity because no one really knows. And who knows when you're a kid, right? Like, but you do. And how can we then expand and deepen it? And then we break up, because we have to learn how to survive a breakup and what that means too. But part of surviving a breakup is embracing a different kind of love, familial love, platonic love, because it's such an essential and critical part of our capacity to thrive.
Speaker 2
Yeah, you put it beautifully. I want to make sure we get to a couple of questions in the chat. So one question is-- I don't know if you can read the chat. I'll read them out loud. I've read links between a lack of sex ed and a potential increase in sex expectations, and in some cases, gender violence. This is because kids may learn about sex online, which could be incorrect information, **** et cetera. Concerns that this may increase with KOSA, K-O-S-A? I'm not sure what that means, K-O-S-A.
Speaker 3
KOSA, as in like cosplay stuff, KOSA? Can someone elaborate?
Speaker 2
Yeah, with KOSA, as kids will still find online, though potentially through different channels. So this is really more a comment than a question.
Speaker 3
Okay. Yeah, I mean, I would agree wholeheartedly. We actually know that. So in that 2017 study done by Common Sense Media and since, they've really focused on a lot of these issues that we've talked through this, their research is focused on what we're talking about, especially in digital contexts. And they found that kids try to recreate the dynamics of what they see when they watch TV and film. And that goes for digital devices too. I do a lot of *********** literacy, sort of conversation, media literacy and critique, critical thinking around those things. And mainstream media has become ever more explicit. And so here's the thing, we live in a meritocracy, in a performative culture. And if we aren't creating a counter-narrative to help kids understand that sexuality is actually a felt experience, not a performance, why wouldn't they think it's the same thing? And that's where they're going. What do we do now when we want to know something? We Google it. And the average age by which a kid comes across **** now is 11 to 12, and it's harder for them to avoid it than to actually come across it on the internet. And it's the free stuff. And whether you're pro-porn or anti-porn is actually kind of irrelevant because we're talking about developing brains and sexuality. So yeah, it is definitely of concern.
Speaker 2
Yeah. COSA, it's the Kids Online Safety Act.
Speaker 3
Oh, okay. Thank you. Yes, of course. I mean, we're doing that. It's late in the game. This is what tends to happen around issues of sexuality because we tend to manifest that fear and avoidance. that, oh, no, you know, if we just don't talk about it, it's not going to happen, or we just don't know how to talk about it. If we just avoid it, it'll disappear, and here we are. And it's tricky. No parent is going to consent to a kid participating in a study about, you know, the impact on the brain of *********** pre-18 years old to consent to that. Like, I totally get it. So a lot of that research, I mean, I could talk about that. That's a whole other, that's a whole other talk.
Speaker 2
Christopher Pepper has a comment and questions. Love this conversation. Deeply appreciate both of your work. Thank you, Christopher. Shafia, do you have any optimism about improving sexuality education in public schools in the U.S.?
Speaker 3
I do, because I am an optimist. Chris Pepper. I mean, get Christopher Pepper on your roster. Like, he's amazing talking to boys. His new book with Joanna Schroeder, Talk to Your Boys, I just posted on my Instagram about it. It's so excellent and so timely, and he's just so smart and insightful and caring about all these things. I am optimistic because there are people like Christopher who are out there because there are resources for all of us. We also are big fans of Ashanti Branch, who is doing tremendous work with the Ever Forward Club, especially with young men, young brown and black men in particular. I mean, it just. So good. And I just, it's people like Christopher and Ashanti who are hopeful those resources are out there. I believe that people ultimately really, truly care. I believe that the majority of teachers and educators are in it for the kids. And I just think We need to support, with support, with these ripple effects of those of us who are really trying to get this out there, with the Harvard Education Press that's gonna put a book out there like this that's like, Okay, how do we scale this? How do we help people understand how to do this while also navigating that tension between job insecurity and knowing what kids need? Like, what are the inroads? And I feel like we can. And always when things get difficult and challenging, I think we have to turn to love. I think we have to turn to love. I think love for our kids, love for our neighbors, for our communities, radical love, public love. Love has to be a verb. And I think as humans, I have to have faith to be able to keep doing this work, and I know people who are doing this and out there. is that we believe in that love. And I think it's the love that will ultimately, because it always does, pull us through.
Speaker 2
So let me ask you a last question about love. I mean, I'm wondering how you talk about with young people. And as you know, I think we're failing epically to prepare young people for love and that And I'm going to make a comment. I'd love your thoughts about it. Part of the issue, I think, is we have such an impoverished vocabulary if you're talking about love, both at a point in time and over time, that when I said I love you to my wife on our wedding day, I mean something very different than when I say I love you now. Those are very two different emotional states. I think when I said I love you when on our wedding day, it was a lot about imagination and imagining how our life would unfold. Now it's much more about history and appreciation and gratitude and that there's always this sort of conversation between imagination and history that goes on in a love relationship. Yes. But I'm wondering whether what you think about my comment, but I'm also, you know, a young person comes to you and says, how do you know if I'm in love? Or how do you know what's the difference between infatuation and love? I think about this person all the time, but am I in love with this person? How do you think answer a question like that?
Speaker 3
I mean, that has to come from within. I think as teachers in these classrooms, we also, to be responsible in our role, it's really about guiding kids to their own discovery, which also requires their imagination and is really important. And I feel like because so many people are uncomfortable with this topic will default to just information giving versus guiding kids to their own discovery. First of all, imagination is so essential. It is a critical element to our developing sexuality, right? Like that's such an important piece. So I'm so glad you bring that up. And then the history, right? And our capacity to reflect upon it and have it inform and give us the inspiration and knowledge, further self-knowledge to evolve is so important. And this is why media, we have to create these counter narratives to what media presents to us around sexuality and love, because it is highly performative. It's not that felt experience that requires your imagination. It's internalizing someone else's imagination. And typically that's what sells. So we really want to encourage kids with their imagination when it comes to these things. I mean, what I've defaulted to is lessons in love. And it's really about curiosity and that anticipation that's such a beautiful part of love and building a relationship with someone through shared experiences. is this combination of history and imagination. So the history of the shared experience that builds trust so we can go the pace of trust. And then the imagination that also has to do with anticipation, which is what keeps things alive in us going forward and doing the hard work that we need to sustain. our relationship and leads to healthy practices that then leads to the deepening of love and those skills of circling back, of learning from our relationships, of moving forward with them. And sometimes reconsidering them, but most of the time, how do we then move forward in a way that strengthens them? For instance, with music, kids love music. If something comes on, I'll say to a kid, and this is all it takes, right? Like, is this, do you think this song is about infatuation, which is the idea of someone, right? Or real connection? How do you know? In my class, we do, we create playlists and sorts around, you know, songs that are about infatuation, songs that are really about love and connection. And they have to, they try and like, we make a collective playlist and they have to sort the songs and talk about them with a critical, you know, media eye. And then we listen to them. And then we take just the love songs for love letters that we write to people who we really care about in our lives. The funny thing is half my classes never know how to address an envelope, which is a whole other thing, which is also indicative of these expressions of love. Like how do we express love in the different ways and then have something that holds on to, to hold on to, to remember that's historical, right? And leads to more imagination. We do love interviews. Kids will bring in you know, they come up with all the questions of what they're curious about when it comes to love. And we'll get what you talked about, like new and fresh love, mature love. We've had kids come in with interviews and stories from grandparents of a first love that no one in the family ever knew about. And a grandparent will pull out love letters. I mean, so amazing and beautiful. I've had kids who've done more than one beyond the required assignment because They're they just eat this up. And and so this is these are the things we need to be doing. I think love stories, love songs, talking about past loves, even if it's unrequited, even if it didn't go well and are learning from it, but just shining light on love. and why it's such a driving force and has been historically and feeds our imagination in such amazing and beautiful ways to inspire us.
Speaker 2
This is a wonderful way to end. We are a little bit over time and we should probably wind this up, but I so appreciate you. And I learn a ton every time we talk and thank you so much. And I really, really, really encourage folks to buy this wonderful book too.
Speaker 3
Thank you. Thank you so much for your interest and right back at you. You've been such a personal rock star of mine, Rick. Thank you.
Speaker 2
Thank you, Cynthia.
Speaker 3
Thank you, everyone.
Speaker 2
Take care. Be well.
Speaker 3
Yeah.