Getting Real About Safe Sex Education
Podcast Episode: Getting Real About Sex Ed with Shafia Zaloom
Conversations about sex education often make people uncomfortable. For many adults, the topic is reduced to biology or risk prevention, and for many young people, it’s surrounded by silence, confusion, or misinformation. But sexuality education is about far more than anatomy or reproduction—it’s about learning the skills needed to build respectful, caring relationships and navigate the emotional and social complexities of being human.
In this episode of the podcast “This Is So Awkward,” I had the opportunity to talk with hosts Dr. Cara Natterson and Vanessa Kroll Bennett about what it really means to teach meaningful sex education today. We explore why comprehensive sexuality education is essential for young people—not just for understanding their bodies, but for developing emotional intelligence, setting boundaries, communicating clearly, and cultivating empathy in their relationships.
👉 Listen to the original recording here: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/getting-real-about-sex-ed-with-shafia-zaloom/id1576221880?i=1000751160619
Episode Transcript
Dr. Cara: And so I think a lot of times our language and information around sexuality has become super transactional. And we're not talking enough about the meaning we give to it. And I think the meaning is the piece. Kids are so relieved. They're like, oh, because no one's talking about it with them. And then they think, oh, okay, so now this is making sense to me. I am normal.
Vanessa: Cara, this is a very exciting day for us on the podcast.
Dr. Cara: I know.
Vanessa: We have one of our favorite people.
Dr. Cara: Truly one of our favorite people, Shafia Zaloom, who many of you may have met before in her previous episode. But the first time you met her, you didn't actually get the full experience because since then, we have had the privilege and the pleasure of collaborating with Shafia on our curriculum. And she's a health educator. She specializes in sexuality and relationship education. She's A consultant and an author. Her new book, Getting Real About Sex Ed, What Today's Students Need. She's worked in schools and nonprofits for more than 30 years. But we get to hang out with Shavia all the time and work on our curriculum together.
Vanessa: And Cara, you can talk about what that feels like to learn from Shafia.
Dr. Cara: From the goat? From the goat? Because when you, it's set to flex, Vanessa, when I'm talking to educators and administrators and they're like, wait, And then they fall off their chairs because they're so impressed.
Vanessa: Exactly.
Dr. Cara: It's like the care and keeping of you is cool, but knowing Shafia is it is such a special thing to learn from one of truly the most important leading voices in sex education, because Shafia has taught us not just what needs to be put into the content, but she has taught us about the process and she has taught us about how to engage students in all sorts of ways and how to engage families too. I mean, it's like, so with no further ado, we are bringing onto our recording. Shafia, we're so, happy to have you here.
Shafia: Oh, I'm just delighted. Thank you for that unbelievably generous introduction. And it is a love fest because I feel the same way about you and our collaboration and all the things. I always walk away from a conversation together, having learned things, new insights, ways to think about stuff, how we can actually get this out into the hands of other caretaking adults who put student needs and well-being at the forefront of what they do every day.
Vanessa: So let's start there, which is super broad. What is the goal of sexuality education? Because we're going to do some myth busting, but I want to start from your words and your perspective on what the goal actually is.
Shafia: Yeah, I think that's really important because so many of us, given the timeline, sort of historical context of sexuality education, what it means, how that's evolved over time, the timeline and history of it in this country, it's left a lot of us who are doing, who are working with youth and young people right now in particular with different definitions, like not a consistent language that I think is really important because this education has been absent historically in a consistent way, in particular with those folks, right? Like who are in our generation in this age group in particular. And sexuality education is really about life. It includes everything. It's how we understand ourselves, how we connect to ourselves, how we understand other people and connect to others in authentic ways. It's how we build community, how we're a part of community. It's our citizenship and our humanity. It's how we treat each other because it really matters. And sex ed is a part of that, absolutely, because our sexuality is an integral part of our overall well-being, right? But sex ed specifically means things like safe sexuality practices, you know, education on preventing STIs, things like that. But sexuality education is really about how we self-regulate, how we form our identity, how we talk to each other, communication skills, all those things.
Vanessa: I mean, do you ever wonder if it had a different title, if it would be an easier sell? Because the way you describe sexuality education, the way you have always described it, is it's like if those 3 letters, S-E-X, were not in the word, people would go, oh, it's a no-brainer, right?
Shafia: Yeah, I mean, a perfect example of that is, people get really nervous when we start talking about comprehensive sexuality education starting really early, right, in the younger ages and grades. And really, it can start from the moment kids start to become aware of their external selves and their surroundings, the context in which they're growing and learning every day. And people think that like somehow we're going to be teaching little kids intercourse education, which is not what it is. That is not what it is. about friends and family and feelings and fairy tales and all the things that have to do with healthy development in a cognitively congruent way. And I think once we actually have those conversations, and I have them a lot with parents in particular, then people start to really understand, oh, okay, Because the sociopolitical history of sexuality, sort of the education everybody gets through socialization, like cultural socialization, versus someone who's trained and understands all these things that's anchored in science, et cetera, et cetera. You know, we have this very sex negative culture because sexuality is everywhere and nowhere all at once in our country. And so when people, you know, have been socialized to think of it in very specific ways, and in ways that keep that negativity in place for all kinds of reasons. When you can help people understand what you actually mean and are talking about and re-educate folks so they can relearn themselves, I think it's really helpful. everybody discovers we all want the same things, right, for our kids.
Dr. Cara: So while we're doing a little myth busting, like K through two sexuality education is not about intercourse, but actually about human relationships and consent and body boundaries and all those super, super important things that like, any parent and any educator wants for the kids they care about. Let's do a little myth busting about sexuality education as kids get older, like it's going to make kids have more sex and earlier sex. I just want to get all the sort of preconceptions out of the way so then we can dive into the nitty gritty.
Shafia: Yeah, that's the most common misconception that if kids know, they will go out and do. And when I bring this to kids' attention about an adult perspective, they all look at me like I have 10 heads. They're like, what? Think about all the things our parents try to get us to do that we don't do. They have to nag us to do, that they give us information and tell us to do and we don't do it. And they just think, It's silly. And many of them are actually offended because they're like, this is an important thing. Like, just because I have knowledge about something doesn't mean, they just, they feel like those sort of negative stereotypes around being an adolescent are where those things come from. And so a lot of them, end up receiving that information from that place. But what we know, and we have decades and decades of empirical evidence that tells us this, is that comprehensive sexuality education actually keeps kids safe. That it maximizes the probability, it heightens the probability of decision-making that's going to keep them and their friends healthy and safe. It's not a panacea, of course, it's not a guarantee, but when you look at all the different decisions they're making, their perspective, their confidence, what they understand and know, to make informed decisions that are going to serve them. That's what comprehensive sexuality education actually does. And in those younger years, that's proven in terms of safety from predatory adults and things like that. So that's really important. There's no evidence whatsoever out there that tells us the inverse of that. if we tell them and give them this information in ways that are aligned with, those standards of quality sexuality education, that they will become promiscuous or become sexually active sooner or any of those things. That's not true.
Vanessa: How far does that safety peace extend. It goes clearly to, the risk of sexual predation. We know when kids know the names of their body parts, for instance, they are far less likely to be victims of sexual predation. But like, can we, just like we're taking the word sexuality and we're kind of removing the sex from sexuality, can we extend the safety parameters? Is this about the decisions kids make in terms of general safety with their body? I'm thinking about a fourth grader who climbs up on the roof and thinks, this looks really cool. I could jump off this roof. Or the kid who comes speeding down, tearing down the street on an e-bike at 40 miles an hour. I'm thinking about.
Shafia: Without a helmet.
Vanessa: Without a helmet with three kids on the bike. You know, we're not going to go down that rabbit hole. I'm thinking about shoplifting. I'm thinking about substance use. Like where, you know, where are these safety parameters? Because it's strikes me that they're all connected. They're all connected. It has to do with how thoughtful we are, how we pause and engage in reflection. Those are all skills that need to be practiced. And not only practicing, so there's information, which is important. So accurate information that comes from credible resources is really important about anything that kids are going to make decisions about. So that's important. The skills piece, which has to be grounded and anchored in community as well as personal values. That's really important to distinguish and for young people to understand and to practice, right? Because we all know about how brains are developing and they're super neuroplastic and we're developing patterns of behavior that will follow us into adulthood. So that is extending these safety lessons, right? And then also, I think what's really important to recognize is that we have to cultivate capacity. And that's the piece that, as I've sort of been on on this journey professionally for several decades now, is that I'm learning is so important, especially with today, right? If we're going to be rocking with the times and the context in which we're doing this with kids, talking to kids, teaching kids, that we really have to be cultivating capacity, their ability to put those skills to work, to apply them to their relationships, and to have the capacity to put all these skills and information into practice.
Dr. Cara: We'll be right back, but first, a word from our sponsors. So now we've convinced everyone listening that sexuality education is essentially the most important class they will take in school, which will prepare them for the real world in ways that calculus certainly will not. I want to do a little bit of a rapid fire vocab session, Shafia, because you define terminology in ways that no one else does. And you do it in a way that is both really beautiful and really grounded in thoughtful, evidence-based research. And because as you demonstrate in your work, everyone has a different conception of a lot of these ideas. And it's really important that we share language in order to have a really valuable conversation. So I want to start, I'm going to give you 3 terms. And then we're going to, throughout the conversation, have you define some more terms. The first term is actually sexuality, and then we'll get to intimacy and love. I want people to hear in your voice, and they see it in our curriculum. You've defined those terms in our curriculum, but I want them to hear it in your beautiful voice, the definitions of these terms. So sexuality is first.
Shafia: Well, our sexuality is a part of our greater, identity, there's sexual identity, right? But sexuality, so this is, my definition is grounded in the circles of sexuality by Dr. Dennis Daly. And I love these circles, especially when we're talking to young people, because there's so many incredible dimensions. to sexuality. And in many ways, it's an ongoing life's process, right? Our relationship with our sexuality. So those different things include sexual reproductive behaviors and practices, intimacy, sensuality, gender identity, and sexual orientation, as well as sexual and reproductive health. So those are the different dimensions of sexuality. And then at the center is power and agency. And that's a really important piece that applies to all aspects of our life, right? And that's basically understanding what our rights are, understanding what we have the capacity to claim and to do, and then feeling empowered and like we actually have the, we're able to access and to do those things. What I love about this, and I think of it visually too, and I always show it visually to young people and to adults alike so that they can really understand an abstract concept in a very concrete way, is it's not linear, it's not a bullet pointed list. It's not a hierarchy. It's not a hierarchy. They're circles and they're in a circle and the circles overlap. And then you have power and agency in the middle. And that's fundamentally, you know, that's consent, right? Like power and agency, that is consent. Our sexuality belongs to us as do our bodies. So we have a right to choose what happens to them, right? As long as they are emotionally and physically safe, right? In terms of a greater community context.
Vanessa: I wish there was a way. in a podcast, you'll all just have to imagine these circles, but the most important thing is in the center is power and agency. And you know, Shafia, the way that when you were first teaching us years ago about the centrality of power and agency, and then as I read about it and how you frame it in this new book, really, like, if you need to be sold why sexuality education is important for kids, young and old alike. We all want our kids to feel that they have power and that they have agency. And I think those words resonate with everyone. And I think sometimes the words consent get muddy for people. They don't really understand that consent isn't necessarily about sex because it's been so tethered to sex. You're going to get into that in a minute. But like, I can't triple down on your center circle enough because I have yet to meet a parent or trusted adult who doesn't say, yeah, that's the goal. We want every kid to feel that they have power and agency.
Dr. Cara: If you couple that, Shafia, because I don't want to lose sight of love and intimacy. I want to put those things alongside each other. And I know we're not covering, we're not defining all the circles of sexuality, but The complication and the goal of all of those things feels so elevated to people. Like they kind of don't expect kids to seek that out or want it or understand it. But you have an insight into young people in a way that most people don't. How do they hold those things alongside each other and how do they understand things like intimacy and love?
Shafia: They're so relieved. Like in class, they're so relieved. They eat this stuff up because it's a natural desire for them to want to be close to people. We need intimacy in our lives to thrive. And kids have that inclination. And they appreciate feeling close to people in their lives, in all the relationships in their lives, to their parents, to their friends, to their family members, just this desire to be close and authentically connected. seen and heard to other people. And that central circle, right, the power and agency piece, that's fundamentally about protecting those fundamentals of human dignity. And we all naturally need and want that. And it is essential, it is imperative for how we are then able to cultivate caring, loving, responsible, pleasurable relationships that are anchored in care, mutual respect, and dignity throughout our lives. And we know in terms of longevity and all the social sort of science and studies around this, that ultimately that is what will lead to a quality life. That the quality of your relationships will determine the quality of your life. And, we access, fundamental aspects of comfort, those sort of things. They all factor in. We could talk about them in all the ways that they need to be honored and recognized. But fundamentally, that's the piece. We know that social connectivity is what makes kids available to learn, to achieve, to connect, to reap all the benefits of community, especially how they give. in community, right? Like all those things. And so I think a lot of times our language and information around sexuality has become super transactional. And we're not talking enough about the meaning we give to it. And I think the meaning is the piece. Kids are so relieved. They're like, oh, because no one's talking about it with them. And then they think, oh, okay, so now this is making sense to me. I am normal because these are the things that I actually want and need. And no one's talking to me about them because they're lumped under this umbrella. And, the adults tend to freak out when young people start to, get curious about this stuff.
Vanessa: You do such a good job of describing that relief in a classroom. Can you help adults understand how they can approach this conversation at home or in a one-off where, because the community of kids in a classroom, having taught these classes, I think both Vanessa and I can so deeply appreciate that feeling that the shoulders drop, there's an exhale, the kids want to talk about it, but there are also 15 of them or 30 of them or however many, and it feels there's sort of a momentum in the group. How can parents or trusted adults engage in one-on-one or one-on-two conversations that sort of pass this baton, right? Because a lot of this is about saying, I'm your community, I'm here to support you, I'm here to answer your questions too, but the other kids aren't necessarily around. And sometimes, when it's an adult and a child together in the conversation and that's it, you lose the beauty of that community in the conversation. So do you have any advice there?
Shafia: Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think what you've just articulated also emphasizes the importance of contextualized learning when it comes to sexuality education. And that's why, because I get that question A lot. How come school? Because it's true. Parents are the primary sexuality educator in a child's life, that caretaking adult who's the primary caretaking adult. Absolutely. I don't know any professional sexuality educator who doesn't believe that. And you're not the only one, right? Like, you're not the only one. There are all kinds of people teaching your kid about sex every day, all day long, right? Their friends, the person on TikTok, the influencer they follow, the person who's a static image on a billboard on a bus that goes by them on the street. Like, that's the real sexuality education in many ways that sticks and they remember is all All of these organic moments, the process of socialization, that is education and that is happening all the time. And parents are huge because anyone who works with young people or has a young person in their life knows that the most effective way to teach them anything is to model it yourself. And kids will always say to me, silence speaks louder than words in this context when it comes to adults. Kids have such a sensitive radar to all these things. So when it comes to parents and parenting, caretaking adults, having these conversations with kids, it's in the organic moments. It's the in-betweens in life. And so I encourage people to, and that's really in many ways within the context of schools, this next book is about. It's all the organic moments. It's not the direct teach in a classroom that's sort of siloed behind a closed door where a teacher who's trained is going to talk about these things in a beautiful scaffolded, hopefully right, like way, especially if they're using your curriculum. But it's outside of that. It's the in-between moments where we default to these fallbacks that have been socialized into us, and we perpetuate a lot of negativity, if that's been our experience in those moments. So for parents, It's this scaffold, it's collecting the moments, and they're small, and they're brief. But boy, do they make a huge difference.
Dr. Cara: Yeah, I mean, you have a few examples. So there's a lot of scenarios throughout the book that you've culled from educators from around the country, every kind of school district, every kind of school. And a lot of them are in those interstitial moments, right? Like at recess or lining up for, an assembly or in the lunchroom, right? A lot of the scenarios, a lot of the moments where things, I don't want to say can go sideways, but present teachable opportunities. Let's put it that way. are in those in-between moments. And I was so struck by, for example, all the ways in which you can teach kids about consent in those moments, lining up. Like when I ran Dynamo Girls, we used to use all of the lining up moments, all the moments where kids are crowded together, because those were the moments they violated each other's personal bubbles. Those were the moments they overstepped. And often not maliciously. I mean, it was never malicious. They weren't trying to make someone else feel uncomfortable. They all just had different bubbles and they were reacting in different ways and they had different needs and they were kind of not at the stage yet. These were sort of like, let's say, elementary school age kids. They didn't all have the language to express it. So I'd love, Shafia, to take a scenario that you talk about in the book and then use it to sort of pull back and talk about consent. in the broader way, because you wrote all the consent lessons in our curriculum, and they're chock-full of amazing, amazing scenarios drawn from your decades of experience, but parents and listeners may not realize all of the opportunities, right? All those in-between moments. So for example, two boys are lined up. to go, I don't know, to go back to class from recess. And one kid smacks the other kid on the ****. One kid says something, the other kid doesn't like it, smacks him on the ****. And the kid who gets smacked on the **** gets really ******. And the one who smacks him on the **** is kind of like, what? What's the big deal? And you guide people, in this case, educators, but this happens in households and families and sports teams. It happens everywhere. and how to have a conversation with those two kids in a way that is both educational about consent, right? You're building their skills and isn't judgmental, isn't shaming, so that the one who did the smacking doesn't feel like, oh, I'm a terrible person. And the one who got smacked feels like, oh, my friendship is over. So talk us through that scenario, Shafia, and some of the thinking and guidance in a situation like that.
Shafia: Sure. Yeah. So in terms of age, right, when these things start to happen and then they just, they keep going in terms of when we're seeking connection, right? What we feel like we've been socialized is acceptable in getting that attention and trying to connect with others and in many ways can be also misguided. So ultimately that's what it is. And I just want to preface this by saying, I actually am moving away from using the word consent so much. I just don't anymore because we've evolved past that where kids now will say, yeah, I get the definition of it, but what does that mean exactly? And we are also navigating this during a time contextually where we're politicizing this language, which is really about student health. And I want to stay away from politics because that's about adults. And that's what's happened. unfortunately. And so I also like to talk about it in different ways because when we oversimplify things as just consent, then kids don't actually start to understand the meaning piece and that this is really about authentic connection and ultimately love. And our capacity to love and be loved in all the different ways that exist in our world that lead to joy and fun and real connection. where you have people you can count on in your life. So, which we know is so important, especially when it comes to mental health and well-being. So in talking about that one in particular and what's happening, a lot of times the default, which I completely understand, especially when you're in a classroom with, I don't know, 30 kids and everyone's sort of unhinged and things are coming off the rails because they've just sat and held their attention for a whole lesson and now they're lining up and things are squirrely and they're waiting, they're anticipating going out where they just get to run around and play, which is like recess or whatever, and a morality clinic, actually, in many ways. I mean, this is when all the real, this is when the real deal happens. Totally. That's right. I mean, all the lessons came from when they got off the school bus and everything that happened in that 20-minute ride. When it comes to this one in particular, I think we really have to just slow down and offer opportunities to kids for reflection. What I also really try and do in the book too, and why there are so many scenarios is I want people to understand there are a lot of different ways to do this in a really beautiful and effective way that works for all kinds of kids. And you may also be in a home where you have, I mean, this is true of my home, three young people with totally different personalities, temperaments, and ways they receive information, process information, respond to you. birth order, all those things factor into this, right? In that moment in a classroom, and if it were to happen in your home, these things where, and I remember this scenario, going for a high five, the person psychs, the kid psychs the other kid out, their hand comes around all the way around and smacks him in the ****. And the other kid's like, hey, and doesn't like that, right? Love that. He's tuned into his intuition, standing up for his intuition to say, that's a boundary. That's a limit for me. Please don't smack my ****. I know a lot of people who, unless they're inviting that, really like that, right? Like no one, that's a surprise, whatever. Different kids also have been socialized and have different temperaments in terms of what they think is funny, what they think is play, what they're growing up with their siblings at home, all the things. What's modeled for them, right? All that stuff. So we have to recognize that too. But ultimately, you have to check in with both kids, right? So the one kid who was upset by what happened, checking in with them, helped me understand. I appreciate you coming to me. I appreciate you sharing. What was it about that didn't feel right to you? Helping that kid to express and articulate it with an EQ, right? We're building vocabulary so that we can actually effectively communicate our emotional embodied experiences. That is such an important skill and capacity for all kinds of reasons that, you know, we could go on and on about. So you're going to provide that kid with that opportunity and ask them, how are you feeling about it now? What do you need? Right? And recognition in of itself goes a really long way. Response, right? Not sweeping it under the rug, not minimizing it, not doing these things that then they learn to do.
Dr. Cara: Right, because what were we told when we were kids? Right? Oh, get over it. It's not a big deal. Like someone touches you in a way you don't like. Fast forward.
Shafia: 5 to 10 years and your internalized message around that has a real impact in a different kind of way. Right.
Vanessa: Well, and what strikes me as you're going through this scenario is that, you know, we all remember from growing up and still see today, kids get pigeonholed, right? They are labeled as, you know, the kid who's doing the **** smacking. Chances are, I'd say there's an 80% chance that kid was the **** smacker. And that behavior, that inability to respect boundaries was a behavior that was associated with that kid. And what happens is if the adults around them and the other kids around them don't help them rein that in and understand what it is about that behavior that's not making other people feel good, there's no opportunity for that kid to break out of that little silo that he's or she has now been put in. And ends up making the fast forward inevitable. And it's so complicated. Okay, can we layer onto this the increasingly young sexualization that is happening in the world around us? Because this is really complicated.
Shafia: The stories I hear, like, so there's another scenario in the book about nut tapping, right? Like, which is something that happens in locker rooms and at home and all these sort of things. And how with second graders, the adults respond in a way policies and whatnot well-intentioned because they're meant to protect people, but when they're not applied in the appropriate context and we don't take the time to really see like what are the social power dynamics? What's really going on? Is this developmentally congruent? Is there stuff like this happening at home? Like that these actions can be innocent. But because they're being modeled and kids are exposed to ever more explicit material or whatever, that there's another one actually, it's just chock full of them. a kid who'd seen the Super Bowl the weekend, over the weekend and had seen the halftime show and twerks on his friend and they're waiting in line and he'd seen how it garnered all this attention because everyone was like, you know, whatever, when it happened and just trying out that behavior to see if she'd get attention to. The same thing where younger and younger, I'm hearing these stories of how we're, these are adults have their fully developed sexual knowledge, like lenses on, right? And are projecting their adult understanding of sexuality onto children. And then treating children as if they're victims and sexual predators.
Dr. Cara: That's right.
Shafia: And that is just insidious. And in many ways, educators are set up because there's not the appropriate training. There's all this now, emphasis and fear around liability. There are all these things that are taking place. There's been a shift in terms of parents and how they feel they should undermine the professional knowledge of teachers and administrators and educators, all kinds of things, right? And so it's become quite complicated. The other kid to talk about, and this is an important piece, Yes, And to pull him aside and to take the time and to ask some really important, simple, straightforward, concrete, strategic questions. And to say, what were you going for with that? What happened in your body in that moment? What were you thinking? And he'd be like, I don't know. And here's where certain concrete tools can be helpful. And I suggest these in the And there are many different ways to do this, right? Like in terms of feeling cards. So really ultimately what we need to be focusing on with these kids, self-regulation, because we're trying to prevent in the future. We're trying to teach, right? This isn't about just throwing on a band-aid, let's move on with life, right? This is about like, okay, let's get to the root of the problem and let's use this as an opportunity to actually socialize this kid, create a counter narrative in our school context that will serve them as they they get older. Because ultimately it serves everyone, right? It's to all of our benefit that we all be able to self-regulate. It's to all of our benefit that we be able to articulate and communicate with each other in effective and honest ways. So for a kid to pull out the cards and to say, what were you feeling in that moment? Rambunctious, energetic, playful, whatever it was, okay? the different options. Have the kids, it's very helpful at that age for them to be able to look through something concrete for them to decide. You are encouraging a child to be the expert in their own experience and helping them to have the language and ability to do that. Now, then, what were the needs? This is the piece we tend to leave out. What was your need? And they might look at you curious and not really understand what you mean. And so in a non-judgmental way, here are some cards with different needs on them. What resonates with you? What sounds like what you may have been feeling at the time? Connection, attention, affirmation, whatever it may have been and say, okay, so you were feeling this, your need was this. Let's talk about the behavior that you went about getting that need met. because that actually had an impact on someone, despite your intention, that was disrespectful and negative and not okay. And we need to change that. How can you get that need met without compromising someone else's boundaries and comfort, as well as the community values that we seek to affirm for all people here? So those are the pieces that I think are really important.
Dr. Cara: We'll be right back, but first, a word from our sponsors.
Vanessa: So again, I'm going to go to the question of how this is implementable at home, because it strikes me that not only are educators well trained to do this, but everything you're saying is applicable. Like I could take everything you just said and I can adjust it to a home setting and it would work. But it's hard. It's hard. And it takes a lot of training and it takes a lot of practice, for lack of a better word, for adults to feel like they can get there. And I'm wondering, do you have any tips how you apply what often happens in a school setting that parents have no idea what's going on because they're not there during the day? How can you apply similar approaches to To the home setting, is it helpful to have a list of words or cards at the ready for kids to be able to identify how they feel? Is it helpful for parents or trusted adults to navigate a situation by using the safety lens first? Because so many parents take it personally, right? They think their child is reflecting their personal values. And if they see something that feels either violent, sexual, or both, they're worried that the world thinks that they, the parent, are violent, sexual, or both. both. And what I hear you saying is the educators know how to make it about the kid and how to address what the kid needs so the kid can change their behavior. Help us just with a couple of tips for the parent-trusted adult to do that at home.
Shafia: For sure. I mean, here's the thing. The reason why I wrote the book is because a lot of educators express to me that they don't know how to do this.
Dr. Cara: Oh, that's interesting.
Shafia: That's where the book came from, was because I was teaching graduate schools, graduate school classes of educators. And they were like, first of all, can you give us a sex ed we never got because you're asking us to do calculus without us having arithmetic first?
Vanessa: Yeah. It's like pediatricians with no nutrition training. I mean, yeah, got it.
Shafia: Exactly. And then the other part of it was they all said, I don't know how to do this. In the trainings, like, I need the language. I need to relearn my own education. All this stuff comes up for me personally. This is what I default to. It's not productive. How do How do I have these conversations? What's the language? What's the process? What are the ways that I can try and do this? And with all things, it can feel overwhelming because it can feel like a lot. So I'm always like, chunk it up, whatever little bit, take those half steps, whatever it is that we need to forward, because we're all trying to do the best we can with what we've got. And it's a challenging time, right? With parenting, I've got all the practice in the world. I've been educated on this. I'm writing the books. It's still hard for me. Oh my God, it's so hard. Right? Like, it's like, it's so hard for sure. And the biggest piece is you can also know and practice, but boy, in that moment, there are all kinds of things that are coming up for all of us at that time that, you know, make it really difficult. And so I say this with humility. Like, I mean, I make mistakes.
Dr. Cara: So let's, Shafia, let's take an example that comes up both at home and in the classroom. And you talk about this in the book, and it's a decision point about when and how to step in, which is if you hear homophobic, racist, misogynistic comments or jokes around the dinner table, you know, heading to lunch, whatever it is, when do we step in the moment? even though we might be hot, even though we might be elevated, like what has to be addressed then? And what are the things that can be addressed like after the class period or at the end of the day, or if you're at home, like once you've had a minute to just like go take 10 minutes to yourself and breathe, like how do we know when to do what?
Shafia: I mean, in many ways, that's an intuitive thing. I think a lot of times life is moving so quickly for all of us that just the pausing, is like so valuable and model something that's really important. Just taking deep breaths. I am a huge fan of encouraging for all caretaking adults, narration. If you are an adult too, you're going to have to have some of the filter. And some of it also depends on the age you're dealing with, right? So this book is K-12, and this is something that starts really early in the home from the beginning. And you know, in the beginning with kids, some things are just the roles and some things can be talked about. But as you sort of move from being a manager and this more hands-on parent to becoming like a consultant and a parent who's more advising and where kids are also trying to individuate in a different way, there has to be shifts. So I think that when it comes to being a parent, it's dependent on your values. I mean, the only person who really knows what those are and what you want to recreate and what you want to diverge from is up to you. And I think First and foremost, as parents, we have to reflect upon that and really figure that out. And to talk about it with adults and not experiment on our kids. And as much as we can, right? I mean, it's all kind of an experiment I'm still. I was like, wait, we're not experimenting. And I think that, you know, when anything is hurtful, right, or mean, we absolutely have to say something. And in that moment, stopping what's happened and to just take a moment to bring attention to what it is, either by saying like, could you repeat that? Or did you mean to have this kind of an impact? Or to say, hang on, this is not feeling right to me. And I need a minute to think about how I want to respond. But what you just said or what you just did, we need to talk about. And I think that that's the first piece, right? Is that we slow down, we don't react, we want to take time to respond. And you can just say, right now, this is happening, this is big, I'm about to lose it, and so I need to take a minute and a deep breath, just so you know, we will be circling back to this, because that was not okay.
Vanessa: It's like an Olympic sport, I'll just say, for the record. This is very hard.
Dr. Cara: But what you're not saying is, who the hell are you? You are a terrible person. I can't believe that just came out of your mouth. I can't believe you're my student, my child, my athlete, whatever. Like you are narrating by noticing and talking about your experience while giving yourself a minute to calm down and making it clear whatever just happened, requires addressing without actually then wading into the next step before you've had a second to pause. So it's very effective.
Vanessa: Question though, question. We're talking in parallel about what happens in a classroom setting or a school setting and what's happening in a home setting, these scenarios that come up in both places. At what point Is it important for parents and educators to be in conversation about what is happening with a given kid? Like, I can say there have been a lot of times in my life, both as a pediatrician and as a parent, when I sort of, I don't really want to bring something from one arena to the other, because I feel like that pigeonholes the kid and that's not fair to the kid. And I've struggled with how global an issue is this versus how specific. So I'll use the example that Vanessa used just now about saying something that is, you know, ist, racist or whatever, and it's not okay. And if you have a kid who does that once, it's one thing. If you have a kid who's now starting to be in sort of a pattern, and you don't know where it's coming from. Either from the, it's happening at home, do I talk to the school? It's happening at school, do I talk to the parent? Like, at what point are we not tethering together the support networks for these kids so that going back to the very top of this conversation, we can engage the primary information sources, the parents, what all educators want, with the formal education system that has to backfill all this information. Does that make sense? Like, I feel like we keep the lanes separate and it just is counterintuitive to me.
Shafia: Yeah, I mean, that's why I'm A three-fer, right? When I go to a school, I do a parent education workshop, I workshop with kids, and then I do a bunch with teachers, because consistency is going to be important. And that's ideal. And when you're living in the grid of reality, sometimes that's not happening. Right. And sometimes that's too, that will be a lifeline for a kid. Like I think of LGBTQ kids, right? Or kids who at home, things are really hard. There's generational trauma or something like that. And that's cycling through and continuing. And, for some kids, home is the place that is a place of safety and where they can really breathe. And for other kids, it's school. And for, fortunate kids, which was true for all kids, it's both. That is the safe space and there is consistency. And so I just want to be real about like the context there and that there are inconsistencies. Ideally, everyone is on the same page. And I think adult communication, effective communication is really important, right? So like teachers typically do newsletters. And when we approach any conversation, whether you're reaching out to a teacher. Because here's the thing, you want to go the pace of trust. And that's the most important piece. And that's one of the most important lessons that we can model for kids is how you go the pace of trust. And whenever we enter into any of these conversations, whether we've taken our moment, we're going to talk to our kid about something, and everything cannot be a teachable moment. Sometimes just saying something and you can say that and be like, I know you know exactly what I'm going to say right now or what I would say in response to this. I'm just pausing us because you've done it again. I want to draw attention to that, but I'm moving on. Because that happens.
Dr. Cara: It's so good.
Vanessa: It's so validating.
Shafia: How long is this actually going to shift and change? And it's actually probably more effective when things aren't hot and in a moment to come back to a kid when things are calm or you're doing the dishes together, you're putting away the late night movie. and to say, or in letting the dogs out or whatever, to say, hey, can we circle back? Because I've noticed that we've had a discussion about this and it keeps happening. And I'm just wondering, what's going on for you? Like, where is this coming from? So that is, it's called strategic questioning. And I talk about it a ton in my first book, in this new book by Fran Peavey. And it really is about how to have conversation across difference without people feeling like they have to abandon their values. And this goes for adults. This goes for kids. We want to model it. We stay away from why. When you lead with why, you've already made a judgment. And kids have the most sensitive radar to this, right? And you wanna go with the what, the how, like what's going on? What's happening in this situation? What are the social power dynamics? What's making you uncomfortable? What are you going for? What feelings are coming up for you?
Dr. Cara: Not why are you such a horrible person?
Shafia: Yeah, exactly. What's being activated in you, right? Or the where, the when, or when is this occurring? Have you noticed a pattern? these sort of things that are really exploratory and inspire reflection without shutdown because the lead is judgmental, right? Like it's an important skill.
Dr. Cara: So let's flip that. We're going to close with something that comes up over and over and over again from educators and parents, which is what happens when a kid asks you a question that feels boundary crossing, right? That feels personal. And I want to read a quote from the book.
Vanessa: That is personal. That is personal, and that feels like a violation, right? It feels like your boundary has been crossed. And I want to read what you say, and then I want to close with this, because it's like top five most common question we get from educators and caregivers alike. What's important for all educators to remember when talking to youth about sexuality is that they may ask about us personally, But in most cases, they are really just wondering about themselves. So with that lens, will you send our listeners off with some framing on how to handle it when they ask things like, when was the first time you had sex? Or have you ever given a *******? Or insert 1,000 examples of things kids have asked adults, and you use the example of an educator, a homosexual educator, who was asked by a student about his personal experience, and you use that as A-frame to talk about this challenge.
Shafia: Yeah, that's that scenario where a kid comes in and is having a hard time because he's gay and he doesn't feel like he can be in his family and community. And there's a teacher who he knows has a same-sex partner and sits down to have a conversation and says, when did you know you were gay? And those kind of conversations come up a lot in all kinds of contexts when you have kids who are curious and wondering, and then you have adults who can offer support and affirmation in different ways. Boundaries are uber important. I'm going to choose to talk about this within a parenting context, because that's how we're going to end, and that's what you've asked about. And when it comes to parenting, I think it's still true. I think it's really true that most of the time kids are wondering about themselves or they have something, some other need that's come up and activated and that they're asking them this question. And so I think it depends on the age, right? And I think the language is to say like, oh, I appreciate you asking. It's really interesting to me. I haven't thought about, it feels really personal to me, and I haven't thought about how comfortable I am sharing that with you right now. And I'm going to take a minute to do that. But it sounds like you might be interested in whatever it is and wondering if you have any questions. And that actually would probably be really helpful for me to understand, too, how we're going to dialogue about this and how much I'm I'm comfortable sharing with you at this time too, because remember we have to go the pace of trust and this is a new realm for us. And as your parent, I also always want to be mindful and aware of and respect how important the parent-kid boundaries are for both of us. It's my job.
Dr. Cara: That is why you're the goat. That is, it is such a great answer and I think it does help people's shoulders drop about 6 inches. It's incredible framing. If you missed it, you can just rewind about 30 seconds and practice that line. It is beautiful. You have so much to offer the world, which we will link to in our show notes, and people can find a lot of your ideas, thoughts, work, and contribution on our website, Less Awkward, as well as across all of the different outlets that you have. Your books have been staples forever. This new one is just like, it has rounded out the library that sits behind me in such a beautiful way. And we are so lucky to be in conversation with you now and I'm sure again soon.
Shafia: Thank you. I appreciate your interest and all of your support and most of all that we're doing this together.
Vanessa: It's amazing. So lucky. It makes it really fun.
Shafia: I'm super grateful. Thanks.
Vanessa: Thank you so much for listening. You can e-mail us with questions, feedback, or episode requests at podcast at less awkward.com.
Dr. Cara: If you want to learn more about what we do to make this whole stage of life less awkward for everyone involved, Our parent membership, our school health ed curriculum, our keynote talks, and more are all at lessawkward.com.
Vanessa: And if you want products that make puberty so much more comfortable, visit myoomla.com.